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Print Page - The Elder Sign

H.P. Lovecraft Literary Podcast Forums

Mythos Matters => Lovecraft Literary Talk => Topic started by: Genus Unknown on October 17, 2011, 05:52:02 PM



Title: The Elder Sign
Post by: Genus Unknown on October 17, 2011, 05:52:02 PM
So we've gone through nearly all of HPL's solo stories, and most of his revisions.

Where does the Elder Sign come in?

I'm not talking about the "star versus branch" debate. Those are just two different people's ideas of what it looks like. I'm talking about the sign itself as a literary device, its origin in the fiction of Lovecraft or his imitators, and where we as Lovecraft fans collectively get the idea that either a branch or a swirly pentagram is supposed to ward off alien horrors.

I mean, there are references in "Innsmouth" to a swastika-like sign that has some utility against the Deep Ones, though it isn't given a name. And there's a reference in the Dream-Quest to a farmer and his wife who, when asked about the gods, "would only make the Elder Sign and tell him the way to Nir and Ulthar," which doesn't tell us much, and also seems to indicate a hand gesture rather than a sigil of some kind.

As far as I can tell, these are the only references in Lovecraft to anything that could be construed as the "Elder Sign" we all know from... where do we know it from? The roleplaying game?

I sense August Derleth's hand in this, but does anyone have a more definitive answer? Maybe a specific story that introduced the idea, or that lays it all on the table?


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: osyrisdiamond on October 17, 2011, 08:24:36 PM
"The dark man’s face had a look of fear which he tried to hide, and Blake saw him make a curious sign with his right hand." ... "Then, looking down, he saw the few people in the square edging away and making the same sign with their right hands that the shopkeeper in the avenue had made." ... "They blessed each flash of lightning, and made cryptical signs of fear with their right hands when a turn in the storm caused the flashes to lessen and finally to cease altogether." -The Haunter of the Dark

I though here was a good origin for that. Granted, it comes in his last story. This does dove-tale in a vague sense to the Elder sign in Dream-Quest. I agree that the swastika-like sign made a lot of sense for the term as an icon, or maybe the star-shapes the Elder Things (Old Ones) were so fond of.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Lambda on October 18, 2011, 07:31:54 AM
[...] or maybe the star-shapes the Elder Things (Old Ones) were so fond of.

Well I thought that was derived from the fact that they had star-heads. And it said that they used the star-shaped stones as currency. So I thought it would be like our currency, where there would usually be people's heads on the coins.

I think we have the Elder Sign as a gesture in The Descendant and Haunter of the Dark (implied), whereas the Elder Sign in Innsmouth is more like something that can be drawn... but maybe they are the same thing, like the christian cross is in the catholic church?


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Genus Unknown on October 18, 2011, 11:00:36 AM
My point is, though, that none of those things are ever called "The Elder Sign." The only reference to such that I can find is in that line from The Dream-Quest that I quoted above. But there's nothing to suggest that the hand gesture made by the Dreamlands farmers has any connection to the Deep One-repelling swastika, or the gestures of the Polish immigrants around Federal Hill.

So we're left where we started. There's this idea in Lovecraft fandom of "The Elder Sign," this symbol that supposedly has the power to repel Lovecraftian nasties, that appears to be completely unattested in Lovecraft. Whether branch or star, the Elder Sign does not appear to be "canon," as far as Lovecraft's actual fiction is concerned.

Again, I sense Derleth's hand in this, and I think the game must have popularized it.

EDIT: After searching my Kindle (in CthulhuChick's handy Lovecraft e-book), I find that aside from the line in Dream-Quest, the only other mention of the Elder Sign in all of Lovecraft is in the fragment "The Descendant."

Quote
Gabinius had, the rumour ran, come upon a cliffside cavern where strange folk met together and made the Elder Sign in the dark; strange folk whom the Britons knew not save in fear, and who were the last to survive from a great land in the west that had sunk, leaving only the islands with the raths and circles and shrines of which Stonehenge was the greatest.

And that's it. No other mentions in that fragment, and one line in the Dream-Quest.

How about the collaborations and revisions?

Well, there's a throwaway reference in "The Last Test," stating that "even Surama shuddered, made an elder sign that no book of history records, and forgot to chuckle." While it does indeed contain the words "elder sign," it doesn't seem to be a proper noun. It's not the Elder Sign, but an elder sign -  and again, it's a hand gesture, not a symbol. Besides, everyone hates "The Last Test," and I think we can all agree to pretend it was never written.

There's a passage (attributed to Alhazred) in "Through the Gates of the Silver Key" that refers to "the Evil that defieth the Elder Sign." No further details are given.

Again, that's all.

That passage in "Through the Gates of the Silver Key" is as close as Lovecraft ever comes to the Elder Sign we know. The only places left to check, as far as "foundational" Mythos material, are Derleth's stories and "The Lurker at the Threshold," which I've never read.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on October 18, 2011, 03:47:19 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Sign

Yellow Sign
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Yellow Sign is a fictional symbol or glyph, first described in Robert Chambers' book of horror short stories The King in Yellow (1895).
 
Interpretation of the Yellow Sign created by Kevin Ross for Call of Cthulhu.

Contents
1 The King in Yellow
2 The Cthulhu Mythos
3 Call of Cthulhu
4 Other media
4.1 Literature
4.2 Film
4.3 Games
5 F. Tennyson Neely monogram
6 Notes and references

The King in Yellow

The King in Yellow never fully describes the shape and purpose of the Yellow Sign. Nonetheless, "The Repairer of Reputations", one of the stories in the collection, suggests that anyone who possesses, even by accident, a copy of the sign is susceptible to some form of insidious mind control, or possession, by the King in Yellow or one of his heirs. The stories also suggest that the original creator of the sign was not human and possibly came from a strange alternate dimension that contains an ominous and ancient city known as Carcosa.

The Cthulhu Mythos

H. P. Lovecraft and many of his imitators were great admirers of Chambers' book and incorporated many of his characters and symbols into their own works. In the latter-day Cthulhu Mythos, developed by August Derleth and other Lovecraft imitators, the Yellow Sign is the sign of Hastur and is used by members of his cult to identify one another. In addition, according to many of these works one of Hastur's avatars is known as the King in Yellow.

Call of Cthulhu

In 1989, Kevin Ross designed a Yellow Sign symbol for the Chaosium roleplaying game Call of Cthulhu. Ross created the symbol for an adventure scenario entitled "Tell Me, Have You Seen The Yellow Sign?" in the supplemental book The Great Old Ones. The symbol resembles a yellow triskelion, and is also believed to resemble a tentacled creature, since Hastur is often described as an aquatic tentacled being similar to Cthulhu.[1]

Ross later stated in an interview that the image used is actually a corruption of his original drawing; apparently, Chaosium printed the image both upside-down and backwards. Flipping the image horizontally and vertically reveals Ross' original conception of the Yellow Sign, which resembles a coiled body or tentacle with two tentacles branching upward. Fans have pointed out that this image bears a resemblance to the "Kronos" symbol used by the band Blue Öyster Cult. When asked, Ross admitted to being a big fan of the band, but could not remember if the resemblance was deliberate.[2]

Other media

Literature


In Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson's Illuminatus! trilogy, the Cult of the Yellow Sign is offered to one detective as a concocted explanation of human history. The cult supposedly worships cthulhoid entities known as lloigor, commits human sacrifice, and has striven throughout history to suppress rationalism. The cult is opposed by the rationalist Illuminati.

Film

Independent film director Aaron Vanek shot The Yellow Sign in 2001, inspired by the Robert W. Chambers story of the same title. Like H. P. Lovecraft, Chambers is a difficult author to adapt to film. The book The King in Yellow which contains the short story "The Yellow Sign" is a set of loosely connected stories about sensitive individuals discovering an obscure play, "The King in Yellow", then becoming obsessed with the horrific otherworldliness. The emphasis is less on plot and characterization than on creating an eerie, disturbing atmosphere.

Vanek, with colleague John Tynes of Pagan Publishing, took the sketchy plot of Chambers' story and built a more complete screenplay around it, while still capturing the proper weird, disconnected, dream-like fantasy feel.

The film was distributed by Lurker Films at the end of 2006 as part of the Weird Tale Collection Volume 1.

See Lurker Films and the original website Web Noir.

Games

The Yellow Sign is the symbol used to designate the Hastur Faction in the Call of Cthulhu Collectible Card Game.
The Yellow Sign is also a "tome of magic" in the Old World of Darkness of White Wolf.
The Yellow Sign is depicted on the cover of the Unknown Armies supplement Postmodern Magick.
The Yellow Sign is used by cultists in Green Ronin's Freeport d20 System setting, and a similar cult in the same company's Freedom City setting for Mutants & Masterminds.
The Yellow Sign is used by the country Carcosa in the Darkon Live Action Roleplaying warclub as their country's symbol.
The Yellow Sign is used in the custom dice game Cthulhu Dice by Steve Jackson Games. When the Yellow Sign is rolled the targeted player must give up a sanity token to Cthulhu.

F. Tennyson Neely monogram

The first edition of The King In Yellow was published in 1895 by F. Tennyson Neely, and featured a picture of a lizard on the cover with a stylized symbol in the upper left corner. The symbol has mistakenly been cited as the Yellow Sign, but it is a monogram of F.T.N. - the publisher's initials. The same monogram and lizard appear on other early editions of books published by F. Tennyson Neely as part of their "Neely's Prismatic Library" series.

Notes and references
^ "Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?". The Great Old Ones. 1989. Chaosium Inc.
^ Forums - Yog-Sothoth for Lovecraft & Cthulhu

---------------------------------------------------------

Old Book comments:

I think HPL and other writers in the Weird Tales stable played around with the idea. In HPL the sign has to be two things: a hand gesture used to ward off evil, evil magic or the Gods from Aoutsaid, or something, and a glyph, an ancient symbol, perhaps a spiral, a swastika, a cross, a pentagram or something rather simple like these. At the simplest level, the hand gesture functions as a cross made over the heart by Catholic and Orthodox Christians, while the glyph contains the same sort of potency as a crucifix in warding off evil spirits.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Genus Unknown on October 18, 2011, 05:28:12 PM
That's the Yellow Sign. Close, but no Elder Cigar.

Damn. It seems I'm going to have to actually read a bunch of August Derleth stories to get to the bottom of this.  :-\


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on October 19, 2011, 08:33:48 AM
I think you need to contact Chad and Chris about this one. And I only say that because I remember that it was in fact discussed in the podcast once before, though I cannot remember which episode. As I recall, the Elder Sign was discussed in some of Lovecraft's correspondences and not so much in actual descriptive writing in the stories. If I remember correctly, Derleth changed it up to be the star-shape as opposed to the tree-shape to make it more accessible to fans, thinking it would be easier to represent and a bit more sinister in appearance. And OldBook beat me (once again) to the punch about he Yellow Sign. I do recall it being described as swastika-like in the "King in Yellow" and I think HPL includes it in Innsmouth as a tip of the hat to Chambers.

So you may be looking in the wrong place for your answer, Genus Unknown. I think in this case, the whole thing has been batted around by other writers, attributed to Lovecraft, and then spread around through the RPG. However, when you do get your answer,please post it here.

Bob


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Genus Unknown on October 19, 2011, 09:07:05 AM
Eureka!

Quote from: August Derleth, 'The Lurker at the Threshold'
"The Elder Sign, the mark of those Elder Gods whose strength against the Great Old Ones is absolute, the mark the Great Old Ones fear and hate."

And more information on the creation of the Elder Sign here (http://www.crypt-of-cthulhu.com/lovecraftderleth.htm), from good ol' Robert M. Price:

Quote
Derleth seems, then, to have picked up on the "Old Ones' sign" from "The Shadow over Innsmouth", described it in terms of the Antarctican star-stones of At the Mountains of Madness, and adopted the nomenclature of the "Elder Sign" from The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath and "Through the Gates of the Silver Key".

So I was right: Derleth took a few lines and signs from different Lovecraft stories and melded them together into one thing, the famous Elder Sign.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: JulieH on October 19, 2011, 10:53:54 AM
Ah, Derleth, the chopper in a hopper, the manly Mythos cuisinart.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on October 20, 2011, 05:03:02 PM
Genus:--

Doubtless you are right and the Yellow Sign is related only as a tangent. I would like to tell you the Derleth stories you perhaps seek are available on-line at library nu with a dot/da'ath between these two elements and that Derleth makes extensive use of the talisman in The Witches' Hollow.

(http://i53.tinypic.com/302nasi.gif)(http://i56.tinypic.com/2v0y3k3.jpg)(http://i53.tinypic.com/302nasi.gif)


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: TransconaSlim on October 20, 2011, 09:20:31 PM
So we know where it comes from now on to the more important question:

Star or Twig!?


I vote star.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: osyrisdiamond on October 20, 2011, 09:53:56 PM
So we know where it comes from now on to the more important question:

Star or Twig!?


I vote star.

Which one can be made into a cryptical hand sign?


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: MartinRonnlund on October 21, 2011, 07:45:10 AM
So we know where it comes from now on to the more important question:

Star or Twig!?


I vote star.
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/181852_497845421532_597356532_6567997_1755385_n.jpg)
I pretty much have to vote Twig.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on October 21, 2011, 08:40:05 AM
Wow, nothing like being prepared, is there? :o

Bob


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Genus Unknown on October 21, 2011, 09:44:15 AM
What, no swastika?


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on October 21, 2011, 11:02:55 AM
A challenger appears.
(http://i55.tinypic.com/2my2kuc.jpg)


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on October 21, 2011, 01:42:03 PM
That is the YELLOW SIGN, OldBook. Stop trying to impose your cultist ways on us Cthulhu-fearing faithful.

Bob


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on October 21, 2011, 02:09:40 PM
But it's an ELDER yellow sign, Bob! I mean, look at those jpeg colours. It's at least 10 years old. Plus, it looks like there's a mangrove swamp in the background. I don't need to explain what mangrove means to you, fellow gay clubbing underground fellow. :) Oh, regards to wifey.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: MartinRonnlund on October 22, 2011, 11:17:15 AM
What, no swastika?
My rabbi would look at me funny : (


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: catamount on October 22, 2011, 01:18:39 PM
So could 'throwing the horns' the traditional sign to ward off the 'evil eye' be considered a type of Elder Sign?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Dio_throwing_Horns.jpg)

Dio making sure the Old Ones are kept at bay at one of his concerts!


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on October 23, 2011, 10:44:52 AM
Maybe "elder sign" is to be understood as "oldskool" sign, i.e., a Masonic hand-sign, as opposed to those now cast by more contemporary street gangs?


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on October 24, 2011, 09:14:22 AM
I don't need to explain what mangrove means to you, fellow gay clubbing underground fellow. :)

Wait a minute. Now I'm gay AND married? Well hell, I guess I'm more like HPL than I thought. :-\

Bob


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on October 24, 2011, 01:00:46 PM
You Mandrake you. jk. I don't know where any of this is coming from. I'm probably hiding from my own sexuality or something.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: osyrisdiamond on October 24, 2011, 09:52:41 PM
There is also Elder Sign - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Sign) It seems to corroborate what we have determined already on his thread.

I like signing my digital signature for my work scanner with the Elder Sign that Lovecraft drew. Wonder if anyone who sees it gets it. :)


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on October 25, 2011, 08:21:37 AM
All in all, I think Lovecraft's version of the Elder Sign is a bit more historically derived. I looks a great deal like Ogam (I think I am spelling that right) markings, and if I remember correctly, Ogam is some of the oldest writing in the world. So I can definitely see the connection between the two. I agree that the star version looks a bit more magical, but the twig version is, to my mind, much more appropriate considering Lovecraft's fascination with ancient things.

As for your sexuality, OldBook, well I'm afraid I can't help you much there. Although i do know some people who practice strange rites, and nuzzle abhorrently in dark places. So let me know if you want their phone numbers. ;)

Bob


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: JulieH on October 25, 2011, 11:50:44 AM
.... Although i do know some people who practice strange rites, and nuzzle abhorrently in dark places. So let me know if you want their phone numbers. ;)

Bob
Furries?


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on October 25, 2011, 01:09:16 PM
yif in the dark abyss, brown jenkins!

I'm pretty much convinced I'm a hetero after all these years, but I sure liked the "gay slang" slant on some of Lovecraft's literary devices.

I prefer the twig, for the record. Some joker ought to inject it as a "green" symbol in whatever country hasn't yet fully decided upon one. Hmm. Come to think of it, the American recycling symbol is sort of an ourobos or Abraxas or trinacria symbol, if you look at it that way. And the various green movements do include people echoing Wilbur Whately's line about "when the Earth is cleared of people"... That's kind of creepy. Is Greenpeace the avatar of Yog Sothoth?


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: osyrisdiamond on October 26, 2011, 12:52:33 AM
yif in the dark abyss, brown jenkins!

I'm pretty much convinced I'm a hetero after all these years, but I sure liked the "gay slang" slant on some of Lovecraft's literary devices.

I prefer the twig, for the record. Some joker ought to inject it as a "green" symbol in whatever country hasn't yet fully decided upon one. Hmm. Come to think of it, the American recycling symbol is sort of an ourobos or Abraxas or trinacria symbol, if you look at it that way. And the various green movements do include people echoing Wilbur Whately's line about "when the Earth is cleared of people"... That's kind of creepy. Is Greenpeace the avatar of Yog Sothoth?

No, but they do remind one of the followers of Cthulhu with their boats and aggressive tactics. Maybe they are supporters of both?


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: JulieH on October 26, 2011, 01:34:26 AM
Ooh - a modern version of Dagon with the greenpeace boat....  I like it.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on October 26, 2011, 08:41:45 AM
Well, there goes Julie-Dime-Bag, getting ideas for new episodes. Personally, I think this one would be AWESOME! Especially if it is told as two separate stories. One from the point of view of the History Chanel camera crew recording it, and one from the point of view of the crew on the boats.

Bob


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: JulieH on October 26, 2011, 12:49:57 PM
"Deadliest Catch - R'lyeh!"


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on October 26, 2011, 01:58:20 PM
The Rainbow Warrior, French hydrogen bomb testing in the South Pacific, yes, this has real possibilities for cosmic weirdness... What's the name of that Greenpeace vessel in Antarctica they show on cable as a regular program? Oh, and the reversed polarity or hole in the Earth's magnetic field appearing in the South Atlantic. It just got real.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: TransconaSlim on October 26, 2011, 04:11:08 PM
The Rainbow Warrior, French hydrogen bomb testing in the South Pacific, yes, this has real possibilities for cosmic weirdness... What's the name of that Greenpeace vessel in Antarctica they show on cable as a regular program? Oh, and the reversed polarity or hole in the Earth's magnetic field appearing in the South Atlantic. It just got real.

the Whale Wars ships are called:

MV Bob Barker
MY Steve Irwin
MV Ady Gil (rammed and sunk by whalers in Season 3)
MV Gojira (recently renamed MV Brigitte Bardot)

I once thought that it would be very cool to volenteer with the Sea Shepherds and read 'at the mountains of madness' while fighting Japanese whalers in the Antarctic.

If the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society's goal is to protect all Oceanatic animal life, does that include Deep Ones?  Considering the amount of pollution currently ruining the worlds oceans, I wonder how that effects the denizens of Y'ha-nthlei or the what ever lies on the other side of the mountains?  That could be a very interesting CoC RPG story nugget: your characters are a group of environmentalists who stumble over the effects of an oil spill on shoggoths, creating super-shoggoths...
or something.... 


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on October 27, 2011, 02:12:09 PM
I was kinda thinking of the reverse: the lower level minions of Greenpeace don't know what the inner circle does: they're protecting R'lyeh. Meanwhile, under cover of "atomic bomb tests" the Allies/United Nations of WWII are trying to bomb R'lyeh like it was some Devil Reef off Innsmouth, but using much larger calibre atomic depth charges. Both sides are presenting cover stories, one about saving sea life, the other about missile parity or whatever. I guess one side could be the Aquarians and include the Octopus, the transnational organization devoted to both protecting and rousing Cthulhu, and the other side whatever Danny Casolaro or Reconiscuto called the opposite of the Aquarians in their UFO wars. The disturbed psychic fabric of 1925 in CoC can be replaced with Occupy Wall Street, Operation Mermaid Dawn, millenialist charismatic Christians instead of theosophists/theosophers, any number of things. Angell's notes have to be Casolaro's, but I'm not really sure about Wilcox's counterpart yet.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: yumegari on November 14, 2011, 06:02:40 AM
I'm a bit late to this thread but I just had to say:

Transcona:  That renamed ship is the next one to sink, mark my words.

old book:  He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named appreciates your efforts in Yellow Sign evangelism.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on November 17, 2011, 02:42:57 PM
old book:  He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named appreciates your efforts in Yellow Sign evangelism.

:)

(actually I LOL'd.)


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on November 18, 2011, 08:25:10 AM
old book:  He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named appreciates your efforts in Yellow Sign evangelism.

Wait a minute, Lord Voldermort is the King in Yellow? :o Holy shit! I need to go back and reread the Harry Potter books...

Bob


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: yumegari on November 18, 2011, 08:44:50 AM
XD

Yes.  Yes, he is.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: TransconaSlim on November 19, 2011, 02:08:25 AM
I'm a bit late to this thread but I just had to say:

Transcona:  That renamed ship is the next one to sink, mark my words.

old book:  He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named appreciates your efforts in Yellow Sign evangelism.

Yeah, those fancy-ass fibreglass trimaran arn't ment for the rough-and-tumble needed when doing acts of eco-sabotage.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on November 19, 2011, 10:36:58 AM
Nautical negroes and men in black, who knew?

Why doesn't Greenpeace just go full-hog and get themselves a submarine? Up periscope! Release all stink-bomb torpedos! White-noise countermeasures! Sound the whale alarm!


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on November 20, 2011, 10:08:23 AM
Why doesn't Greenpeace just go full-hog and get themselves a submarine?

Who says they haven't yet? Sooner or later, the whale guys will become full-blown ecoterrorists, and when that happens, I will gladly watch the shows dedicate to how they got taken down.

Bob


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: TransconaSlim on November 20, 2011, 02:17:09 PM
Why doesn't Greenpeace just go full-hog and get themselves a submarine? Up periscope! Release all stink-bomb torpedos! White-noise countermeasures! Sound the whale alarm!

Actually, the Sea Shepherd organization (not Greenpeace, who are often described as the "avon ladies of the ecological movement") DID have a submarine at one point. SEE: http://www.ecorazzi.com/2010/03/10/sea-shepherd-submarine-looking-back-at-unique-weapon-against-whaling/

"The intent was to disguise the sub as a full-grown orca whale in an attempt to scare gray whales away from tribes hunting them in Neah Bay, Washington. San Francisco artist George Sumner was commissioned for the artwork. Captain Watson also considered adding hydrophonic speakers that could blast orca sounds as far as two miles away. Sounds of gray whales being attacked by orcas were also considered.

It was also about this time that the Canadian Navy caught wind of the sub purchase and made it known publicly that “no one at Sea Shepherd knew anything about operating a submarine and it was ridiculous for Sea Shepherd to acquire one.”..... Oddly, the Sea Shepherd never did use the Mirage. It would journey with them on their flagship Whales Forever tightly secured in an on-deck cradle, but never saw action. Whether the risk of taking it out was just too great — or the operation too complex, is not known. It did bring some good press for the organization — which as we know they are masters of — but eventually was sold off in 1999. "  



------
'eco-terrorist' is the new 'communist' for fear mongering.  Did you know that some states have passed 'eco-terrorism' laws which make it illegal to simply document the mistreatment of animals?  It's gone far beyond criminalizing ELF political arson, but into criminalizing speech and press.

To bring it back around to the subject of the forum, if Lovecraft was writing today, the houses of The Street would contain "the leaders of a vast band of eco-terrorists" ready to destroy the good Ango-Saxon American traditions of exploitation of the planet for profit

of course, I have theorized that Lovecraft's work does have an ecological bent to it: the nostalgia for a pre-industrial society where people lived in greater harmoney with the earth, while teconology and science is often viewed in a negitive light (such as Tillinghast's machine opening up horrible vistas).  I envision the Shoggoth as the result of industrialism, almost living manifestation of industrial waste byprduct created by the decaying Elder things civilization.  


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: yumegari on November 21, 2011, 02:54:48 AM
I'm a bit late to this thread but I just had to say:

Transcona:  That renamed ship is the next one to sink, mark my words.

old book:  He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named appreciates your efforts in Yellow Sign evangelism.

Yeah, those fancy-ass fibreglass trimaran arn't ment for the rough-and-tumble needed when doing acts of eco-sabotage.

There is that, but what I'd meant was that it's a commonly held nautical belief that a renamed ship is cursed and will sink itself at the first opportunity.  Uuuunnnnless you already knew that, in which case, shut up, yumegari.  :p


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: TransconaSlim on November 21, 2011, 01:19:08 PM
I'm a bit late to this thread but I just had to say:

Transcona:  That renamed ship is the next one to sink, mark my words.

old book:  He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named appreciates your efforts in Yellow Sign evangelism.

Yeah, those fancy-ass fibreglass trimaran arn't ment for the rough-and-tumble needed when doing acts of eco-sabotage.

There is that, but what I'd meant was that it's a commonly held nautical belief that a renamed ship is cursed and will sink itself at the first opportunity.  Uuuunnnnless you already knew that, in which case, shut up, yumegari.  :p

I did not know that, thanks for the info!  I guess a curse is scarrier then Godzilla's layers...


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on November 24, 2011, 02:37:51 PM
Yeah, renaming a vessel is unlucky. Worse than having females aboard :)

Say, that's pretty wild about Sea Shep having a sub. I remember the Neah Bay tribes renewing whaling way back when. Was it both the Quilleyute and the Makah? I forget now. I did hear from someone no one had any idea any more how to cook whale, and were asking friends to track down some Japanese cook books for them.

Hey, that also reminds me of a conversation I had with a Sea Shep veteran once. It was all Zadok Allen-like, but what I remember was he and perhaps some others in or around the group were thinking about targeting Chukchi mink farms in Siberia, blowing them up or something, maybe sneaking in in the night and letting all the mink loose. Some Soviet bureacrat had the great idea of rerouting Siberian native whale hunts to mink farming, but to feed the mink they used whale meat, presumably now caught by Soviet trawler. In Greenland the natives pretty much hate Greenpeace. They're barred from trading seal fur with the EU now, and Greenpeace sends up vessels on various harrassment missions, the latest I know of being to screw around the Cairn Oil oil drilling platform near Disko Bay. I think they even arrested a few of them and held them overnight the last time, and the next morning they all scidaddled away never to return. I got the impression they blame Greenpeace for the seal fur ban in the EU, but I might be wrong about that. That's pretty much Greenland's mainstay, so now they're branching out into oil exploration contracts, rare-earth mineral ventures and so on. I guess there's a law against uranium mining, but to get some of the rare earths (or was it gold?) they have to kick up some uranium dust from the ore. So Greenpeace has certainly provided themselves with fund-raising opportunities into the far future by screwing up Greenland native seal hunting, or so it appears.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: TransconaSlim on November 24, 2011, 03:11:58 PM
Yeah, renaming a vessel is unlucky. Worse than having females aboard :)

Say, that's pretty wild about Sea Shep having a sub. I remember the Neah Bay tribes renewing whaling way back when. Was it both the Quilleyute and the Makah? I forget now. I did hear from someone no one had any idea any more how to cook whale, and were asking friends to track down some Japanese cook books for them.

Hey, that also reminds me of a conversation I had with a Sea Shep veteran once. It was all Zadok Allen-like, but what I remember was he and perhaps some others in or around the group were thinking about targeting Chukchi mink farms in Siberia, blowing them up or something, maybe sneaking in in the night and letting all the mink loose. Some Soviet bureacrat had the great idea of rerouting Siberian native whale hunts to mink farming, but to feed the mink they used whale meat, presumably now caught by Soviet trawler. In Greenland the natives pretty much hate Greenpeace. They're barred from trading seal fur with the EU now, and Greenpeace sends up vessels on various harrassment missions, the latest I know of being to screw around the Cairn Oil oil drilling platform near Disko Bay. I think they even arrested a few of them and held them overnight the last time, and the next morning they all scidaddled away never to return. I got the impression they blame Greenpeace for the seal fur ban in the EU, but I might be wrong about that. That's pretty much Greenland's mainstay, so now they're branching out into oil exploration contracts, rare-earth mineral ventures and so on. I guess there's a law against uranium mining, but to get some of the rare earths (or was it gold?) they have to kick up some uranium dust from the ore. So Greenpeace has certainly provided themselves with fund-raising opportunities into the far future by screwing up Greenland native seal hunting, or so it appears.

I know that when te Neah Bay tribes renewed whaling put allot of activists in a bind; on the one hand, ecologists want to stop whaling all together.  On the other hand, we want to respect aboriginal sovernty and first nations rights to self-determination.  There is a really funny video on youtube of American Indian Movement activst Ward Churchill and Sea Shep founder Paul Watson getting into a massive argument at a conference (you want to see two of the biggest egos in North American activism, there it is). 

Maybe there is another CoC RPG story nugget: a group of greenpeace activists are beset by the followers of the West Greenland coast's cult of degenerate Eskimos.  :P


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on November 25, 2011, 02:17:04 PM
Or the degenerate Eskimos living high up on the iceshelf in Western Greenland commandeer a Greenpeace vessel, dispose of the activists and begin raiding settlements under the Greenpeace banner?

Yeah, I can see the ideological bind at work there for the ecologist activists. I can also see natives pretty much saying screw that noise. I'm not sure how it fits in, but I know the Nazis in Germany had a strong sense of fighting for their cultural survival as an endangered group, and also a lot of respect and mysticism regarding "pure" aboriginal peoples, such as Nubians. I also remember seeing some pretty misguided and harmful actions perpetrated in the name of environmentalism, such as the weekend warriors in the Florida everglades going out in their 4x4s with chainsaws to cut down "invasive exotic" trees, namely the Australian she-oak (I think it's called, it looks like a pine but isn't, and has hard wood).

I guess when the Ice Age hits again fur won't be dead anymore and we can all get back to more important things, like flint-knapping and making fire using a wooden drill and tinder. The Makah as I understood it were pretty much just exercising their traditional right so people couldn't say in the future their right had expired, plus they wanted to initiate some of the younger people into the old hunting techniques. Isn't it true that right there off the coast of Washington state is home to the world's only sedentary whale pods? I read somewhere they only started migrating due to ice age displacements (which ice age I do not know) of their stomping grounds, but that the coast off the Olympic Peninsula was left pretty much unchanged or something.

One more thing: I thought the term "killer whale" was really a misnomer, they don't attack other whales and are really just a kind of glorified porpoise with blakc and white markings. Why did the Sea Shepherd people think painting their sub like an orca would scare other whales off? Anyway, I'm sort of glad they never attacked the Soviet Union, that could've easily escalated to something nasty, tit-for-tat attacks against America's Sea World amusement park, or even worse.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: LambethWarp on July 21, 2012, 02:50:55 PM
Bumping an old thread here, but I reckon you could do a lot worse for an Elder Sign than the glyph or logo used by (pioneering German industrial/un-rock/performance art band) Einstürzende Neubauten:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vy4z0ulpRK4/R1BRo3l3hoI/AAAAAAAAAoM/EFEL3e4rjR0/s1600/R-212049-1145286956.jpg)

To me it just has that quality of namelessness written all over it. I read somewhere that one of the band originally saw it carved on an ancient monolith at some Zapotec site in Mexico, something like that - whether that's true or one of them just made it up, I don't know. It's pretty cool though, I think. It's not uncommon as a tattoo design among people who haven't even necessarily heard of that band, which is also cool inasmuch as it's acquired a sort of memetic life of its own...


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on August 05, 2012, 06:21:31 AM
Cf. Joh Dee's monas figure from his Monas Hieroglyphica
:

(http://ldysinger.stjohnsem.edu/@texts2/1537_john-dee/monad/monad6.gif)

(http://symboldictionary.net/library/graphics/symbols/deemonad.jpg)


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: LambethWarp on August 05, 2012, 06:28:52 PM
Ah, of course! John Dee is one of those touchstone characters for fans of general weirdness, isn't he? Along with Roger Bacon, Madame Blavatsky, Aleister Crowley, Nikola Tesla, Grigori Rasputin, William Burroughs, Hassan-i-Sabbah...


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on August 07, 2012, 04:20:35 PM
Ah, of course! John Dee is one of those touchstone characters for fans of general weirdness, isn't he? Along with Roger Bacon, Madame Blavatsky, Aleister Crowley, Nikola Tesla, Grigori Rasputin, William Burroughs, Hassan-i-Sabbah...

You forgot um Robert Anton Wilson and Nicholas Roersch (spelling?) and St. Germaine and some others :)

I'm not sure, LW, I only started reading and reading about Dee about 3 days ago, after downloading the free 350+ page PDF book at the website I mentioned in the Newport Tower thread in the General category. His career surely did take a weird course, going from prison under Mary to Elizabeth's most trusted agent (007, actually), then engineering the British empire conceptually and practically, then fleeing with his family under cover of darkness down the Thames to go live in Europe and counsel the alchemically-minded Rudolph II in Prague, Poland's King Stefan and assorted other royals.

The above-mentioned book pretty much makes the case Dee named Rhode Island after the first step in his project toward world domination. Rhode is a secret name. I haven't read far enough, or maybe the author never gets around to saying fully what it's supposed to mean, but I think it's a pun, both Rood (the holy Cross) and Road, the old name for sea-routes.

The above-mentioned book also makes a very good case that Dee's monas symbol, seen above, is actually an architectural symbol underlying the scheme of the Newport Tower in Rhode Island. Therefore the Einsturzende Neubeuten (Building Anew Destroyed Buildings? my German is rusty) likely used Dee's symbol rather than a Zuni or Zapotec or Hopi glyph, although the latter is surely possible as well.

The flag of Rhode Island, a stylized anchor with the line tangled about it and the word HOPE emblazoned underneath, is easily resolved from the monas symbol, and Dee used the old "anchor cross" in a woodcut drawing on the first page of the handbook he presented Elizabeth I for British domination through sea-power called The Limits of the British Empire (before there was a British empire). The anchor is an old early underground Christian symbol found in the Roman catacombs. The tangled rope is problematic, because it is a hazard to sailors and vessels, but likely incorporates both the base of the monas symbol, meant to symbolize Aries, and to hint at the caducaeus, the sceptre of power the child Mercury stole from Jupiter or Apollo or whomever it was, and used to mean health, and of course the analoguous symbol of the snake raised on the copper rod Moses raised and which was later reportedly destroyed to fight iconoclasm by a Jewish religious reformer. HOPE has that sort of general Christian religious feel to it, but Dee likely had a secret meaning in mind, perhaps an angelic word imparted to him, or a vision he experienced. Benedict Arnold (the great-great grandfather of the traitor and the early governor of Rhode Island) put his initials on the state emblem, so B was on the left of the anchor, and A on the right. This is almost like Boas and Jachin, the names of the two pillars which stand in front of the Temple in Jerusalem and which are a significant element in the rituals of Masonry (and very prominent on the High Priestess card in the Waite deck). And we are dealing with a strange combination of Freemasonry, medieval sorcery and Native American civilization in early America and the Newport Tower, I guess. An interesting coincidence is that the Tower now stands in Touro Park. Newport has the oldest synagogue in North America (although a group in New-York dispute the claim), the Touro Synagogue, named after the benefactor Touro who arrived with a group of Jews fleeing Brazil when the Portuguese won the upper hand against the Dutch there and New-Amsterdam's Peter Stuyvesant refused to allow the refugees who had fought on the side of the Netherlands to settle in his Dutch colony, because they were Jews. Tower and Touro sort of seem cognate somehow. BA called it his Old Windmill. Lovecraft certainly knew about it. The idea it was built by the Vikings almost makes a better fit in my mind because of the superficial appearance, which is much like the seat of the Catholic Church in Greenland at Gardar, now called the Hvalsey Chuch, I believe. Of course the Vikings in Greenland weren't very keen on arches so far as we know, so maybe that is a very superficial speculation on my part.

Dee really gets the weird reputation for the Enochian business he did with Edward Kelly. They were supposedly talking with angels and powers using an elaborate system and an angelic language. This has inspired a number of occultists to emulate their Enochian calls, including Crowley and Jack Parsons, who used L. Ron Hubbard as his Kelly-scrier. Crowley's name Thelema almost seems to be his misreading of a term in Dee's Monas Hieroglyphica, but I'm not qualified to say for sure. Blavatsky had a completely different system, and Tesla was a strict materialist who believed his powerful imagination and visions were mechanical effects. Rasputin probably looked something like Dee in his dotage, at least, but comes from the Siberian shamanic strain as opposed to Dee's rationalistic Western sorcery. Hassan Sabba probably only resembles Dee in his use of mind control, although the techniques were completely different. Dee was more like Timothy Leary, if Leary had been a presidential advisor and instructed the president to, for example, colonize space in such and such way, and the president had listened. Burroughs is probably like an anti-Dee if he can be compared at all.

I hope this hasn't been boring, I just wanted to share it all because I find it fascinating. You probably also noticed Elizabeth II appeared with the actor playing 007 at the opening of the Olympics. Dee's Rode or "Herode" is still there, under the surface, to be realized at a future time, I'm sure.



Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 07, 2012, 04:32:58 PM
Ah, of course! John Dee is one of those touchstone characters for fans of general weirdness, isn't he? Along with Roger Bacon, Madame Blavatsky, Aleister Crowley, Nikola Tesla, Grigori Rasputin, William Burroughs, Hassan-i-Sabbah...

You forgot um Robert Anton Wilson and Nicholas Roersch (spelling?) and St. Germaine and some others :)

I don't know anything about John Dee, so I can't contribute anything to that discussion, but the fact that BOTH of you left Charles Fort off your lists makes me weep. Weep, I tell you!


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on August 08, 2012, 02:49:32 PM
Stop crying, Genus! If you look carefully above at

http://hppodcraft.com/forums/index.php?topic=1079.msg13685#msg13685

you'll see I begin with Cf., meaning Charles Fort, of course. I figured the initials were enough.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 10, 2012, 11:11:58 AM
you'll see I begin with Cf., meaning Charles Fort, of course. I figured the initials were enough.

I sense deception here...

Bob


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: LambethWarp on August 10, 2012, 05:00:07 PM
Great post, old book! The name of the band means 'collapsing new buildings' and comes from a newspaper headline from the late '70s - buildings in Berlin put up since the war were simply called 'new buildings' and one of them, a tower block I think, was so shoddily constructed it just spontaneously fell down within a couple of decades. The band are (or at least were) all about destruction; at one of their very early gigs at the ICA in London they made a spirited attempt at actually destroying the venue using power tools. They're pretty much a health-and-safety officer's worst nightmare (along with Rammstein). :)

Ah, of course! John Dee is one of those touchstone characters for fans of general weirdness, isn't he? Along with Roger Bacon, Madame Blavatsky, Aleister Crowley, Nikola Tesla, Grigori Rasputin, William Burroughs, Hassan-i-Sabbah...

You forgot um Robert Anton Wilson and Nicholas Roersch (spelling?) and St. Germaine and some others :)

I don't know anything about John Dee, so I can't contribute anything to that discussion, but the fact that BOTH of you left Charles Fort off your lists makes me weep. Weep, I tell you!

Oh yeah, Wilson! Top nutter. I looked up some of Roerisch's paintings for the first time the other day - very beautiful and haunting and I can really see how they'd have resonated with Lovecraft. Is Fort really a good one for this list? I thought he was too skeptical, all about finding rational explanations for 'weird' phenomena? Or was he more about just documenting them in a non-judgemental way?

If I may pimp some of my own work here, Dee and Kelly feature (incidentally) in one of my stories - http://dointhelambethwarp.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/the-house/ (http://dointhelambethwarp.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/the-house/)

Quote
Some two months after the start of the restoration project, the conservator started to have experiences around the old house which he could not rationally account for, and which seemed to increase in frequency as he read more of Demontfort’s manuscripts. He’d start translating a page of cryptic French while the sun was shining brightly in through ancient diamond windowpanes and pause after what seemed only ten minutes to discover that it had become totally dark and that he was straining to read by the dull yellowish glare of street lights. On other occasions he would doze off at the desk he’d set up in the old study and suddenly awake in another room, standing bolt upright, with no idea of how he had come to be there. Once he fell into a reverie while typing up notes on his laptop and suddenly came to, finding that he’d typed half a page of nonsense. Chiding himself for working while clearly far too fatigued to pay proper attention, he was about to delete the meaningless text when he realised with a sudden jolt that the non-words he’d typed in his delirium bore an uncanny resemblance to the text he’d transliterated from the Enochian characters in the manuscripts. A quick reference to his notes from a couple of weeks earlier confirmed it; not only was the general sound of the nameless language the same as the text he’d typed, but many of the same ‘words’ could be identified.

It's not very long - comments welcome from anyone who'd care to read it.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: LambethWarp on August 10, 2012, 05:06:05 PM
Also, Telsa may have been a materialist but I was given to understand that, at least later in life, he attributed his flashes of inspiration to data being beamed into his head by aliens using some sort of advanced microwave technology...but I was thinking more in terms of how he has been interpreted by others (specifically, he's often said to be the inspiration for HPL's 'Nyarlathotep' story).

And he spend much of his life trying to build a death-ray. Aww yeah.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 10, 2012, 05:19:57 PM
Is Fort really a good one for this list? I thought he was too skeptical, all about finding rational explanations for 'weird' phenomena? Or was he more about just documenting them in a non-judgemental way?

The second one. I think Fort would be deeply offended if anyone ever accused him of trying to "explain" anything, rationally or otherwise.  ;D


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: LambethWarp on August 11, 2012, 02:38:33 AM
Sure, I was maybe thinking of him as a sort of 19th century Carl Sagan but of course that's not right. Are his original writings worth checking out?


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 11, 2012, 12:51:04 PM
Oh yeah. Check out The Book of the Damned. It's... an interesting read. I've been into Fort for years now, and I still don't know whether he was crazy or, like, right.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on August 13, 2012, 04:07:09 PM
Fort's not completely against coming to conclusions, though. He sort of tries them on for size. Some of it almost seems like he's joking around at times, coming up with insane theories which fit the facts as he expounds them better than prevailing rationalistic theories and thinking. He seems to have an axe to grind with rationality as such. His chief joy seems to be in proving to his own satisfaction that science is wrong and just doesn't know, and things are much weirder than anyone ever thought. At one point he claims, jokes or postulates that humans are the property, chattle or playthings of beings from other worlds.

Cf. John Keel, who seems to emulate his tone and stance in Mothman Prophecies, but he becomes almost bogged down in trying to stand his agnostic ground while making brief forays into theorizing.

All of Fort's books (as far as I know them) are available for free on the internet, mainly as plain texts. The Book of the Damned is a fine place to start.

(Incidentally, Carl Sagan didn't wake up on the right side of debunk to begin with, either, he graduated to it, after briefing Pentagon officials and similar riff-raff on aliens, flying saucers and UFOs.)

I don't remember Tesla receiving the alien microwave internet signals, but it's possible, he had a very eccentric reputation near the end of his life. I think he lived in the Waldorf-Astoria as an old geezer. Early on he claimed, I seem to remember, receiving radio signals from Mars. This was at a time when there weren't really any earth-bound broadcasters. No one ever figured out what intelligent-seeming signals he had tuned in, iirc.

Thank you for the proper translation from the German and the link to the short story, which I intend to read, Lambeth Warp. Just scanning over the excerpt of The House here, the words "dull" and "glare" struck me as antonyms, although I've never thought about it before. "glow" might be a better fit?

Roerisch, yes, yet another globetrotting double-agent occultist. Some of his paintings are very nice. Cf. Aleister Crowley, Helena Blavatsky, and perhaps Dee as well. Nick's paintings are better than Al's drawings, and Al's short stories aren't all that short and aren't as good as Helen's, cf. Ensouled Violin, Butterfly Net, etc., etcf.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on August 16, 2012, 12:11:25 PM
Lameth Warp:--

Your story is very good. I found a few insignificant typographical errors, spelling errors, one or two verbs in the wrong tense. Not sure about the nocturnal ejaculation, I would have skipped that I guess. Sort of a cosmic entity based on fear of psychological mother-smothering? Shekinah? I liked it.


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: LambethWarp on August 16, 2012, 06:33:58 PM
Lameth Warp:--

Your story is very good. I found a few insignificant typographical errors, spelling errors, one or two verbs in the wrong tense. Not sure about the nocturnal ejaculation, I would have skipped that I guess. Sort of a cosmic entity based on fear of psychological mother-smothering? Shekinah? I liked it.

Thanks. Yeah, I haven't really proofed that one too thoroughly yet. I'm not familiar with this shekinah thing, I'll look it up. I was going more for the succubus angle - you know, Lilith, the Jinniya (female Djinn), Aisha Qadisha - see http://hyperstition.abstractdynamics.org/archives/004336.html (http://hyperstition.abstractdynamics.org/archives/004336.html) - all sorts of female demons crop up in Middle Easter mythology, apparently. I just thought it added a nicely fucked-up sex-magic slant to it, given the earlier references to Crowley. Cheers for reading though!


Title: Re: The Elder Sign
Post by: old book on August 17, 2012, 04:38:31 PM
Man, I think it's better than you realize. Shekinah is the idea of the void through which the light knows itself, "she was my glory and delight, from the first day," and has more connotations such as the glory of God, etc. It's basically the feminine counterpart of the Judaeo-Christian God.

The typos were rather simple: "unlit" turned into "until" in one instance, and the transitive and intransitive forms of lie/lay got bungled in one spot. There was also a passage where the subordinate clause wasn't set off sufficiently and the subject of that clause took over the action of the main subject, that sort of thing. A few commas here and there would fix that.

Jung and Freud talk about how the smothering influence of the mother on the individual, and Jung says this is what individuation strives against, and if it fails the psyche is trapped within the maze of the mother's influence and the self fails to mature. You've got this cosmic Gate-vagina closing in on the poor restorator and subsuming him. I sort of wondered at the several phrases where Demontfort served as Dee's teacher because you didn't build up his authority for that, and Dee certainly did have some authority with QE1. It might have been interesting to explore the smell of the divine feminine void some more, but would easily descend into fishiness.

Well done!