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Print Page - Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth

H.P. Lovecraft Literary Podcast Forums

General Category => Episode Discussion => Topic started by: Bulbatron on July 14, 2011, 03:03:50 PM



Title: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on July 14, 2011, 03:03:50 PM
I hope it isn't too early to start the 'Episodes' thread for this story.  I know there's probably at least a week to go until we start with The Shadow Over Innsmouth, but it's probably my favourite Lovecraft story, so I'm quite enthusiastic to begin gibbering about it!

It was actually the 'Call of Cthulhu' videogame that really got me interested in H. P. Lovecraft, and since the early parts of the game were largely based around the story 'The Shadow Over Innsmouth' it was therefore the first story I really became aware of.

I didn't read the story until a short time after I'd finished the game, but I really enjoyed it.  Horror stories set by the sea always have a special atmosphere of their own to me.  One of my favourite things about the story is the way it spends so much of it just piling on the atmosphere and building up to something.  When you go back over everything that the main character has heard or been told, there are some quite disturbing concepts in there.

I'm being a bit vague at this point because I don't know how if this story will need more than one episode or not and I don't want to bugger it up for anybody who is reading the stories for the first time along with the episodes.

I was really pleased when the HPLHS did the radio adaptation of this story and I thought they did an amazing job with it.  It's definitely worth a listen!

As for film adaptations, I can only think of two.  One of them is 'Cthulhu'.  It seemed like a pretty loose adaptation, but it was very atmospheric.  I have to admit, a lot of the time, I didn't really quite understand what was going on.  I think I much preferred 'Dagon'.  It was much more obvious as an adaptation, though it too, took a fair few liberties, like moving the location to Spain and making the 'monsters' more squid-like and tentacular, rather than fish-frog-like.  The main character was strangely comical at times, which was odd.

Actually, I think one of the best on-screen depictions of Innsmouth and the inhabitants was probably the 'Call of Cthulhu' videogame I've already mentioned.

Out of all of Lovecraft's stories, I think this is the one I've read and listened to the most often.  Definitely my favourite.  Can't wait for the episode(s)!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on July 16, 2011, 07:52:55 AM
"One of my favourite things about the story is the way it spends so much of it just piling on the atmosphere and building up to something."

Sort of like a darkening cloud-filled sky, pendulous and pregnant with the promise of something to come.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on July 16, 2011, 06:55:44 PM
Yeah, just like that!

Innsmouth is described quite vividly, so the place is very easy to imagine!

So, when our hosts begin discussing The Shadow Over Innsmouth, will they pronounce Innsmouth is Inns-mouth or Innsm'th?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on July 18, 2011, 11:11:43 AM
Yeah, just like that!

Innsmouth is described quite vividly, so the place is very easy to imagine!

So, when our hosts begin discussing The Shadow Over Innsmouth, will they pronounce Innsmouth is Inns-mouth or Innsm'th?

You know, that will probably take up the first half of the first episode...

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Boneworm on July 18, 2011, 06:43:33 PM
Yeah, just like that!

Innsmouth is described quite vividly, so the place is very easy to imagine!

So, when our hosts begin discussing The Shadow Over Innsmouth, will they pronounce Innsmouth is Inns-mouth or Innsm'th?

Let's just agree to call it "Steve".


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on July 19, 2011, 09:23:16 AM
Yeah, just like that!

Innsmouth is described quite vividly, so the place is very easy to imagine!

So, when our hosts begin discussing The Shadow Over Innsmouth, will they pronounce Innsmouth is Inns-mouth or Innsm'th?

Let's just agree to call it "Steve".

LOL! "The Shadow Over Steve"; I like it!

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on July 19, 2011, 01:28:53 PM
Chris has referred to it on the show before as "Innsmoth," as in "Inns" + "member of the order Lepidoptera."


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on July 19, 2011, 01:57:19 PM
I'd be willing to bet that the way most people say it is probably based upon how they first heard it pronounced.  In my case, it was Innsm'th, so that's how I say it.  Much the same way I pronounce other places with that suffix, such as Plymouth or Bournemouth.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on July 19, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
I always said "Inns - mouth," until I heard the Dark Adventure Radio Theatre adaptation in which they say "Innsm'th." I adopted that pronunciation immediately, just because it sounds better.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: kulain on July 19, 2011, 04:28:15 PM
innsboca!

but yeah i always thought it was mth like plymouth since its more new england ish, but if greenwich is green-witch and not ipswitch then who knows whats going on there.

i also say ray-yay for rlyeh.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: osyrisdiamond on July 20, 2011, 01:28:48 AM
We might call it "Ins My'outh" but that sounds too much like "Ins Mah-bellah". Get Ins-Mah-Bellah! :\ Sorry; bad attempt at a joke. It sounded funnier in my head.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on July 20, 2011, 08:12:27 AM
We might call it "Ins My'outh" but that sounds too much like "Ins Mah-bellah". Get Ins-Mah-Bellah! :\ Sorry; bad attempt at a joke. It sounded funnier in my head.

Yeah, it would almost have to have... ;)

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: MediaGhost on July 20, 2011, 06:42:06 PM
I'd always just assumed it was pronounced Inns-muth - as in Ply-muth.  But I'm perfectly willing to call it "Steve."


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on July 21, 2011, 05:05:24 AM
Great episode, and I agree pretty much with everything said.  It's interesting the way the main character basically gets a different spin on what's happening in Steve even before he gets there.  I wondered how long he spent staring at Sargent's feet in the bus before in the end he had to say 'Whad'you'lookin'ad, outsider?'

Definitely agree about Shelley Duvall.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Miskatonic Philologus on July 21, 2011, 06:01:46 AM


Great first installment on on of my favorite stories -and loved the Papa Hem references.

Look forward to the second part!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: TheMediocreYoungishOne -Tom- on July 21, 2011, 07:23:27 AM
I'm from Massachusetts. I'm certain it should be pronounced "Innsm?th" (or "Innsm'th" as Genus Unknown said).

On a side note... I remember hearing someone pronounce Haverhill as Have-er-Hill and cringing. It's HAYverill (emphasis on the first syllable and no "h" in the second.

I'll stop now.

(The "?" was supposed to be a schwa, but it doesn't work. :( )


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: osyrisdiamond on July 21, 2011, 02:43:30 PM
The Innsmouth Look by ~Azes13 (http://Azes13.deviantart.com/art/The-Innsmouth-Look-207875766?q=boost%3Apopular%20innsmouth&qo=58)

Spoiler Alert: the real reasons the Deep Ones mate with humans.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on July 21, 2011, 05:29:05 PM
Yeah, the whole human/fishmonster mating angle always seemed a bit dubious, but I think we can hand-wave all that away by assuming some kind of magic / science-fictional intervention. Maybe the Deep Ones are great genetic engineers, like the Elder Things. Maybe the Elder Things created both the Deep Ones and the simian ancestors of humanity out of the same goop, so that we're extremely - and unnaturally - close genetically, even moreso than humans and chimps. Or maybe the first Deep Ones were humans who were turned into fish monsters by otherworldly means. Or vice versa.

Or maybe Lovecraft just wanted to write a creepy story, and wasn't overly concerned with the plausibility of producing viable offspring with the Bipedal Salmon of Doom.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: mcglothlin.13 on July 21, 2011, 09:54:14 PM
In reading "The Shadow over Innsmouth" I've found that following a map as our narrator travels throughout Innsmouth can be quite helpful.  The following is the best one that I've been able to find that is also free online:

(http://catalog.chaosium.com/images/Innsmouth-Street-Map.gif)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: mcglothlin.13 on July 21, 2011, 10:10:38 PM
I don't mean to be hogging a bunch of posts, but I'm just pumped about Chris and Chad finally getting to "The Shadow over Innsmouth".  I wanted to make my fellow forum readers aware of a really great Innsmouth story called "Once More, From the Top . . ." by A. Scott Glancy.  It can be found in Delta Green: Dark Theatres, a fiction anthology whose stories are set in the Delta Green role playing game universe:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517M1T6FTFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The story is set around an interview of a retired Marine who is re-telling his first-hand involvement in the government raid on Innsmouth in 1927.  I think it's an incredibly cool story.  The early part of the story has a lot of the same creepy vibe as Lovecraft's original tale, but by the end the story turns into something like James Cameron's Aliens.  I usually hate fan-based fiction.  For instance, don't waste your time buying something like Tales out of Innsmouth--not very good.  But Glancy's story is incredibly good.  I highly recommend it to those who like tales based off the Innsmouth sandbox.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: osyrisdiamond on July 21, 2011, 11:46:59 PM
If we're are talking maps:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BJ3K5QFy7-A/TM81UyPgXFI/AAAAAAAAAjk/nMZqeCR6sFc/s1600/map_innsmouth.gif)

(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs42/f/2009/148/d/b/Innsmouth_Horror_board_by_henning.jpg)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: mcglothlin.13 on July 22, 2011, 01:35:24 AM
Though much prettier, the maps from Fantasy Flight aren't labelled.  It's difficult to follow our narrator by those artistic renderings, though they are pretty.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: osyrisdiamond on July 22, 2011, 01:59:24 AM
Though much prettier, the maps from Fantasy Flight aren't labelled.  It's difficult to follow our narrator by those artistic renderings, though they are pretty.

This is where Photoshop would come in handy... and the permission from the artist might help, too. >_>


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Boneworm on July 22, 2011, 07:55:30 AM
Loved the episode; I think it's the funniest yet.  "Glub-glub, gotta make the donuts...", etc. XD  The Glancy story sounds awesome, since that's the one thing that's really missing from the story.  Lovecraft sets up this awesome action story in the government raiding Innsmouth on land and sea, but just passes over it.  Now that would be a good way to bring HPL to the silver screen.  Just hopefully not in 3D, ugh.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on July 22, 2011, 03:12:54 PM
Wow!  Really liking the maps!  I suppose ideally you need the simplicity and clear labelling of the first map, but somehow still keep the detail of the others.  The colour maps certainly have a more interesting version of Innsmouth, simply because the streets aren't just sets of parallel streets.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on July 22, 2011, 03:37:07 PM
One of my favorite parts of the Dark Corners of the Earth video game is when your character is forced to accompany the FBI on the Innsmouth raid. They even made it snow, because the raid takes place in winter. It's one of many scenes in TSOI that I've always wanted to see more of, so that's a real treat.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on July 22, 2011, 10:30:18 PM
It's great the way the game uses those elements from the original story.  My favourite part is when the player first arrives in Innsmouth, before eveything 'kicks off', so-to-speak.  I love just exploring the place, poking my investigators' nose into all the nooks and crannies - and just generally absorbing the atmosphere.

It's a real shame that Headfirst went bankrupt and that the game ended up having the flaws that it did.  What would they have achieved if they'd had the time and money required to do whatever they wanted with the game?

Oh, and going back to maps of Innsmouth, there is another map that I daresay a few people have, and that's the one that came with the CD version of the Dark Adventures Radio Theatre Adaptation.  I'm going to have to go and have a look at that now...


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on July 25, 2011, 09:10:17 AM
Don't have time to read "The Shadow Over Innsmouth?" Here's the whole story in 24 succinct panels (http://www.flamejob.org/?tag=the-shadow-over-innsmouth), as shared by our hosts on the Facebook page.

My favorite:

(http://www.flamejob.org/comics/2011-03-28HPC23.jpg)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: vortexgods on July 25, 2011, 03:36:35 PM
I had linked to this in another thread, but for those who didn't see it:

http://tokyoscum.blogspot.com/2010/06/shadow-over-innsmouth.html (http://tokyoscum.blogspot.com/2010/06/shadow-over-innsmouth.html)

It has video clips from the Japanese live action movie version of The Shadow Over Innsmouth.

The movie was successful enough in Japan that it spawned a Virtual Boy game. (http://www.infinitelives.net/2008/10/08/games-ive-never-played-lovecraftian-stereoscopic-fpses/)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Rob on July 26, 2011, 09:24:43 AM
Been looking forward to this one for a long time - my fave HPL story....

Speaking of movies, any hope of the HPLHS adapting Shadow for their next project? I mean I enjoyed the Dagon movie but a true, well done movie version would be a real treat


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: catamount on July 27, 2011, 09:51:38 PM
Speaking of fan-fiction, like Mister Fifer, I also wrote a story about Lovecraft and Hemingway meeting one another. In my story it was in France, during World War I. Lovecraft was a correspondent for News of the World, when he met Hemingway a young dashing ambulance driver in France, the two had quite a few zany adventures together, I called it, For Whom the Shoggoths Toll!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: shiatis on July 28, 2011, 12:27:07 PM
As I'm listening to these episodes, I keep thinking back to the CoC: Dark Corners of the Earth video game. One of the early levels is played in Innsmouth. I haven't played that game in years, but as went back and re-read SOI and as the guys are talking about the different locations, characters, etc. I keep thinking back to the game because all of the key characters and locations are in there. They did a great job with making the city really creepy, too. It was released for PC, xbox, and (I think) PS2. I would definitely recommend picking it up if you can find a used copy, just to walk around the locales if nothing else.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: shiatis on July 28, 2011, 12:58:01 PM
You guys weren't kidding when you said they were expensive:
http://www.lwcurrey.com/store/108199.htm

This place has some other really cool Lovecraftiana for sale, including one of his letters.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on July 28, 2011, 01:03:19 PM
I'm just gonna leave this here:

(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7183/madnesspd.jpg)

Shoggoth lifted directly from Lechance's Lovecraft Bestiary (http://yog-blogsoth.blogspot.com/).


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on July 28, 2011, 03:51:53 PM
As I'm listening to these episodes, I keep thinking back to the CoC: Dark Corners of the Earth video game. One of the early levels is played in Innsmouth. I haven't played that game in years, but as went back and re-read SOI and as the guys are talking about the different locations, characters, etc. I keep thinking back to the game because all of the key characters and locations are in there. They did a great job with making the city really creepy, too. It was released for PC, xbox, and (I think) PS2. I would definitely recommend picking it up if you can find a used copy, just to walk around the locales if nothing else.

Agreed about the game.  Sadly there never was a PlayStation 2 version.

Anyway, just listened to the next episode.  Great stuff as usual and very funny!

When I think about it, it really seems very tragic and sad when you consider what a picturesque town Innsmouth must once have been.  It's really well described the way it has all descended into decay as the people of Innsmouth pay less and less attention to the upkeep of their town, as they look forwards to a life of immortality beneath the waves.  That they do maintain a flimsy facade of a working town for the benefit of the occasional visitor really drives home how sad it is.

It's easy to imagine lots of eyes peering out through cracks in walls or grimy windows and suchlike as the protagonist walks the deserted streets of Innsmouth - possibly feeling as though he's being watched the entire time.  That's really creepy.

I always took it that the Deep Ones, Dagon and Hydra are as much of this Earth as humans are - or as much as anything can be that was created by the Elder Things - while Cthulhu and his spawn were completely 'alien' beings.

The whole segment with Zadok Alan is really well written in my opinion - or at least it really creates a sense of mystery and dread.  This section is done particularly well in the Dark Adventure Radio Theatre production of the story - with the crashing waves and seagulls in the background while Zadok rambles on.  Brilliant stuff!

And then you have the idea of humans having to mate with these creatures - which is obviously horrible on so many levels it scarcely bares thinking about!  I mean, for one thing, how do the human worshippers decide who gets to do the dirty, so-to-speak?  Secret ballet?  Shortest straw?  Best swimmer?  Do they get to pick which Deep One they're paired with - or do the Deep Ones make all these decisions?  I'm already wishing I'd ended the post with '...scarcely bares thinking about.'!

Looking forwards to the next episode!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: osyrisdiamond on July 28, 2011, 04:46:15 PM
The Gillman House reference was a bit obvious to me; but that's me.

CORRECTION: The swastika is of Indian (East) religious ideas. Swastika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) Especially, Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. It has since been used by others, but it certainly was NOT Celtic in origin. Interestingly enough, Native American also used it way back.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: kulain on July 28, 2011, 06:44:10 PM
i think they were being sarcastic about the gilman house bit.

great hilarious episode! made me laugh on the subway >_> glub glub



Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: TheMediocreYoungishOne -Tom- on July 28, 2011, 10:54:07 PM
I had a math teacher for all four years of high school whose name was Mr. Gilman. He was in the navy, but I don't think he was a member of the E.O.o.D.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: osyrisdiamond on July 29, 2011, 05:13:47 PM
i think they were being sarcastic about the gilman house bit.

great hilarious episode! made me laugh on the subway >_> glub glub



Yeah, I was at the gym and had to stop myself from literally lol-ing while on the elliptical trainer. It was very amusing! XD


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: godwinshelley on July 29, 2011, 07:35:23 PM
Yes, I agree, very good episode -  glub glub.  I'd love a T-shirt with "glub, glub - gotta make the donuts" on it.

Just a quick mention that the Spring Equinox is usually around March 21st (give or take a day). 

GS


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Lambda on July 30, 2011, 07:59:25 AM
Chad is right about April 30th - it's Walpurgisnacht in Germany, and also the night before the celtic Beltane festival. Walpurgisnacht is also called Hexennacht -  Witches' Night - here and it's celebrated every year, at least in the south. Yay, we has occult festival...  ;D


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: RedHookDave on August 02, 2011, 11:18:38 PM
Please slow down guys! I know you're excited to get to the action scene, but please go into more detail about Zadok's story. There's a lot of great story in there :)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 03, 2011, 08:30:20 AM
See, I love the image of "millions" of deep ones coming up out of the bay to bitch-slap the Innsmouth population. Image you are a young boy in the cupola, watching this invading hoard slowly make its way up the dark (and probably misty) streets of your home town. I can just imagine what he saw as the townspeople started fighting back and being effortlessly overrun by monsters and half-human abominations. And all of this happening only by moonlight.

Creepy.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Boneworm on August 03, 2011, 03:36:11 PM
See, I love the image of "millions" of deep ones coming up out of the bay to bitch-slap the Innsmouth population. Image you are a young boy in the cupola, watching this invading hoard slowly make its way up the dark (and probably misty) streets of your home town. I can just imagine what he saw as the townspeople started fighting back and being effortlessly overrun by monsters and half-human abominations. And all of this happening only by moonlight.

Creepy.

Bob

It's a lot like Call of Cthulhu, in the way that there are so many things mentioned that could easily be spun off into full stories on their own, this being just one of them.  You've got Captain Obed discovering the Deep One cult in the South Seas, the religious struggle in Innsmouth, Deep One/human romances, the invasion, the raid and its aftermath; there's just so much hiding just below the surface, literally and figuratively!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 03, 2011, 05:27:03 PM
Isn't Gilman the name of the narrator's sidekick in Dreams in the Witch-House, too? It's also a street in Berkeley, California. Some kids were building a clubhouse there last time I was there.

Must get around to listening to both of these episodes, judging from the comments... Swastikas? Walpurgisnacht? I've read more about the origins of the swastika than I'd wish on my bitterest enemy. I think it's fair to say there is no known origin and it comes from the Stone Age or earlier, and likely appeared independently at different times as well. Some say it's the Sun, some say a vortex, others say other strange things.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 04, 2011, 09:45:03 AM
Isn't Gilman the name of the narrator's sidekick in Dreams in the Witch-House, too?

Walter Gilman is the main character, but he's not the narrator. The story is told in the third person.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 04, 2011, 11:43:04 AM
I think it's fair to say there is no known origin and it comes from the Stone Age or earlier, and likely appeared independently at different times as well. Some say it's the Sun, some say a vortex, others say other strange things.

I think this is the reason, or at least one reason, why Hitler decided to use it as the emblem of the Third Reich. The man was obsessed with imagery and the occult, and this would have been a pretty good way to tie his "Aryan purity" idea into ancient history and the idea of predestination. The same reasons could also be applied to Lovecraft's decision to use it as well. Just a thought.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 04, 2011, 01:38:03 PM
That's right, Genus, thanks.

Lovecraft seems to be linking the swastika with the elder sign in this one. Hitler probably chose the swastika for the NASDAP emblem to attract Teutonic occultists, who had been using it for some time already. Shirer says Freikorps troops returning from the Baltics had swastikas on their helmets during the early skirmishes in Bavaria. 1931 would be just a little early for general knowledge of the Nazi use of the swastika in the US, I'm guessing, because they didn't really come to power until 1933, but I'm not sure. It was popular then for other reasons, including Theosophical Society use of it on their book covers. It also comes up in the Great Gatsby, some strange little passage about a Swastika Holding Co. run by a Jewish fellow. It was sort of generally used as a good luck symbol like a four-leaf clover, and there was some nebulous knowledge of its universality, its use among Navajos, Tibetans, Hindus etc.

Regarding Zadok Allen, I think the deal is, HPL chose the name Zadok and then since it began with the last letter in the alphabet, chose the first, a London A-Z(ed) in reverse, aking to I am the Alpha and the Omega. The first and last word, in other words. Zadok was the priest who kept tradition alive sometime during the Macabbean period, the Saducees in the New Testament are just another form of the name Zadokite, a follower of Zadok. Allen is an old New England family (Ethan Allen), but with all the Poe-droppings littering the streets of Steve, it probably also refers to his middle name.

Obed is short for Obediah, Obadiah, the prophet with a book in the Old Testament, probably the shortest one after the Book of Ruth, and concerning the Doom that will Come to Edom, or Idumaea, tucked in between Judea, Moab, the Red Sea and Sinai toward the Arabian side. The (Four?) Lost Kingdoms of Edom have a certain meaning in Kabbalah, something about emanations materializing into unstable worlds that are subsequently lost. EDOM also means Electronic Dissolution Of Memory, a la the Men in Black waving little violet penlights in people's faces to give them "lost time."

On possible inspirations for the story, HPL mentions a town of Fijians in Massachussets in Selected Writings I think. Fijians were cannibals once upon a time not so long ago. "Fijian cannibal fork" might be a title of an exhibit in the local historical society in that nameless coastal town, I suppose, in HPL's mind.

"Kanaka" in Zadok's testimony is the old word for Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander in general, by extension. It is now a racial slur in Germany.

Sich and Chard seem to be missing the whole Prohibition thing, or maybe I missed them picking up on it. This was a good reason for federal raids on otherwise peaceful New England coastal towns, and the whole smuggling subtext here ties in with "hidden gold" and "unknown sources of prosperity" in the story. The South Sea Trade can also be interpreted as an elliptical reference to the Far Eastern Opium Trade behind the wealth of many a respected member of the Bostonian race. That leads to modern speculations about secret societies such as Skull and Bones, which probably got their start at Andover Prep, where HPL's Phillips ancestor fought and lost an ideological battle for control of the institution's future. These secret societies, KOA and others, were sometimes thought to feature some sort of Satanic rituals. I have no real information about that. But there is also the idea of ruling families in the Shadow over Steve, Marsh might be short for Marish or whatever family with a similar name it was that lurked in HPL's genealogy, or it might refer to a separate family which has been a major funding source for Andover Prep over the years. It's worth noting as well that the "Kennedy clan" patriarch made his money smuggling booze in Mass, while when he was an ambassador in London he was sampling the goods so much they called him quite the ass.

Why do you think Zadok was so damned thirsty for a drink? Was he so furtive because he was afraid of the local temprance society lookouts, or the scions of Dagon? Plausible deniability either way.

On unholy unions with marine frog creatures, Sich and Chard mentioned the somewhat new theory with some evidence to back it up that everyone outside Africa has some Neanderthal genes. It might interest them and others to know there is an older theory, regarding Africans and the rest of humanity, that somewhere during Man's evolution he almost became aquatic, lived in the water almost like a manatee or seal, and thus shed most of his body hair, to streamline the membrane for swimming through the fluid medium. There are other arguments from anatomy as well, but I don't remember them. Then, for whatever reason (terrors of the deep?), Man returned to land and resumed his evolution above water, minus some fur. Given that seals are fairly furry, I assume this had to take place in a warm water environment.

I think we should assume not all Deep Ones are created equal, and that some of these creatures probably go back to the Babylonian legends of Ionnes, others to mermaids and mermen. Whether hybridization between these mythical lines is possible, I don't know, but it might be better to assume Ionnes is an ET and humanoid Deep Ones in America and elsewhere are more mermen who branched from land humans way back on the evolutionary track, and by "better" I mean for purposes of Lovecraftian analysis, because ultimately no one knows and it's all pretty murky.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on August 04, 2011, 04:13:17 PM
Some great information from an old book!

Just listened to the new episode.  Great stuff as usual.  Loved the background fx through the Zadok scenes.  I think I've said this before, but I find this a really easy scene to imagine.  The gloomy sky, sea-mist, the occasional seagull and the sound of waves crashing and distant buoys tolling out to sea.  All this time, Zadok is mumbling and muttering of terrible things from the past and horrors still yet to come.  Really evocative!

And as was pointed out during the show, how exactly do you 'entertain' a Deep One?

Interesting that the Deep Ones appear to be making use of shoggoths.  Do they know that they could be related to them?  That is of course, assuming acceptance of the theory that the Deep Ones are earthborn creatures like humans and were therefore also products of the experimentation of the Elder Things.

I can just imagine how revolted the narrator must have felt actually having to take any food served up by one of the folks of Innsmouth, even if it was from a can.  I can imagine him being the only one eating at the place and being served with very bad grace.

I think Lovecraft does an amazing job of piling on the paranoia and fear as the narrator discovers that the bus is 'broken' and that he'll have to spend the night.  I don't know whether the narrator should have just ran away or not.  If they thought he was trying to escape, they'd have been after him like a shot and probably just killed him there and then.  I suppose they never imagined he'd have the ingenuity to escape from an upper window, so that might've caught them off guard slightly.  If they had caught him, I wonder if they would've just killed him outright, or taken him somewhere and held him prisoner, for some altogether more terrible purpose...

The only other action scene from a Lovecraft story I can think of (involving the narrator, I mean, rather than being told to the narrator), is the scene with Dyer and Danforth fleeing from the shoggoth at the end of 'At the Mountains of Madness'.  But I like the hotel escape scenes best out of the two.  They manage to be tense even though they're action-scenes.  While the shoggoth is actually seen by Dyer and Danforth during their flight from it, in 'The Shadow Over Innsmouth', by the time we get to the hotel escape action scenes - we - that is the narrator - still hasn't actually seen anything!  All he, and we - still have to go on at this point, are Zadok's drunken ramblings.

I know I keep harping on about it, but I think this is yet another scene that the Dark Adventure Radio Theatre adaptation does very well indeed.  But even without it, it's easy to imagine the strange sounds coming from the other side of the door and walls as the narrator makes his escape.  I imagine him locking a door and having a split second glimpse of - something - on the other side, before he throws the bolt and locks the door.

I'm really glad our hosts brought up the 'Call of Cthulhu - Dark Corners of the Earth' videogame, because the early parts of the game set in Innsmouth really are done very well indeed, with the hotel escape being a terrifying highlight.  I'd venture to suggest that quite a few of us here who have played it, still have a few, lingering, mental scars from trying to get through that section, so I think the game deserved a mention.

Regarding the film Dagon, the title of the film might be slightly misleading, but overall I think it's one of the better Lovecraft adaptations out there.  It's by no means perfect, but I still rather enjoy it.  Very much agree about how well the early scenes work, when one of the main characters is wondering around the village, it's pissing with rain and strange noises can be heard.

So, another splendid episode.  Looking forwards, as ever, to the next.

Glub-glub.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: bkd69 on August 05, 2011, 12:51:48 AM
I can just imagine how revolted the narrator must have felt actually having to take any food served up by one of the folks of Innsmouth, even if it was from a can.  I can imagine him being the only one eating at the place and being served with very bad grace.

I think Lovecraft does an amazing job of piling on the paranoia and fear as the narrator discovers that the bus is 'broken' and that he'll have to spend the night.  I don't know whether the narrator should have just ran away or not.  If they thought he was trying to escape, they'd have been after him like a shot and probably just killed him there and then.  I suppose they never imagined he'd have the ingenuity to escape from an upper window, so that might've caught them off guard slightly.  If they had caught him, I wonder if they would've just killed him outright, or taken him somewhere and held him prisoner, for some altogether more terrible purpose...


One thing to remember, <SPOILER!!!!> is that our narrator isn't just some random outsider victim here, he's family. This is a retelling of the prodigal son. Almost. The reason for the surly welcome is likely due to the fact that a) he's still quite human, so he reminds them how far they've fallen, and b) he's got those Marsh eyes, so he reminds them just who's responsible for their now fallen state. They're probably under strict orders to keep him safe and sound under lock and key until they bring him to the family reunion out at the Reef, but they don't have to like it.

As far as my own Innsmouth cred goes, here's my maternal grandmother in her younger days, but believe me, she really has the look now, as do my aunts. And they're from the hill country near Exeter, where they dug up the vampire in 1892. I try to avoid the ocean, but the Munchkin Cthulhu bonuses are awesome!

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1jBbtA4rujA/S_BVsiJahwI/AAAAAAAAAeg/sv6u-87m2vY/s400/Top-27.jpg)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: bar1scorpio on August 05, 2011, 02:30:11 AM
For the gamers, this HPL story is also one of the heaviest influences on games like the Silent Hill series.

And the upcoming hotel escape was easily one of the most intense bits of action writing that HPL had ever managed.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 05, 2011, 04:16:51 AM
Yes, the whole young-man-with-bubble-gum-rubberbands-and-a-penknife-escapes-certain-death thing, some real adventure finally. Was HPL pandering to the pulps or was he "sincere" here?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 05, 2011, 09:11:08 AM
Yes, the whole young-man-with-bubble-gum-rubberbands-and-a-penknife-escapes-certain-death thing, some real adventure finally. Was HPL pandering to the pulps or was he "sincere" here?

You know, I never thought about that, but you may be onto something, Old Book. I can imagine that at this point in his life, HPL knew that he was a much better writer than he had been, and maybe even appreciating the fact that he could turn out some stuff that he actually liked (which I would love to hear more about in the podcast, as was done i the earlier episodes) and not over analyze. But at the same time, he would have to contend with the publishing world and take into consideration the wants of his readers and the needs of the magazine publishing his work, ergo the action scene in this story. I can see this happening very easily, but I can also see him putting this in to stretch himself a bit with his writing abilities. HPL admits to not being able to write dialog worth a damn, perhaps this scene is as much a literary experiment on his part as it is a nod to his market's expectations. Either way, it is certainly something to think about.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 05, 2011, 11:13:56 AM
Well, he was a friend and admirer of Robert E. Howard, and I can't imagine anyone being a big Howard fan without having a taste for action and adventure.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 05, 2011, 12:59:02 PM
I would have thought so, but most Lovecraft is so non-action oriented that I never really thought about REH's influence on him.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 05, 2011, 03:51:08 PM
Well, a writer can't necessarily write everything he likes to read. To look at it in the opposite direction, Robert E. Howard loved Lovecraft's otherworldliness and cosmic perspective, but he could never seem to pull it off in his own work. He and Lovecraft just had different strengths and weaknesses as writers, but they loved each other's work. So I think Lovecraft probably had a lot of fun writing the escape from the Gilman House, though thinking the whole time that Howard could do it better (and he would probably be right).


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Yojimbo on August 06, 2011, 03:53:55 PM
On unholy unions with marine frog creatures, Sich and Chard mentioned the somewhat new theory with some evidence to back it up that everyone outside Africa has some Neanderthal genes. It might interest them and others to know there is an older theory, regarding Africans and the rest of humanity, that somewhere during Man's evolution he almost became aquatic, lived in the water almost like a manatee or seal, and thus shed most of his body hair, to streamline the membrane for swimming through the fluid medium. There are other arguments from anatomy as well, but I don't remember them. Then, for whatever reason (terrors of the deep?), Man returned to land and resumed his evolution above water, minus some fur. Given that seals are fairly furry, I assume this had to take place in a warm water environment.

I brought this argument up once in a Human Origins class in college. To his credit, my professor didn't just laugh at me, as he should have. He told me a story instead. He did archaeology in Africa, and had a friend who used to play golf out there in between hunting for hominid fossils. One day his friend hit a water hazard, sending his golf ball into a nearby stream. He went to recover his ball, and WAS BITTEN IN HALF BY A HIPPOPOTAMUS.

There's a reason why we're the only hominoid that swims. The water is dangerous for primates. Doubly so when there's hybrid fishmen in it.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: semiosteve on August 07, 2011, 12:49:44 PM
In reading "The Shadow over Innsmouth" I've found that following a map as our narrator travels throughout Innsmouth can be quite helpful.  The following is the best one that I've been able to find that is also free online:

(http://catalog.chaosium.com/images/Innsmouth-Street-Map.gif)

To see some pics from the actual locations referenced in the story try this link:




http://www.flickr.com/photos/55086390@N06/sets/

 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/55086390@N06/sets/)

semiosteve


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Miskatonic Philologus on August 07, 2011, 06:49:13 PM
Well, he was a friend and admirer of Robert E. Howard, and I can't imagine anyone being a big Howard fan without having a taste for action and adventure.

As mentioned in the podcast, the escape from the Gilman is one of the very few action scenes in HPL. I read somewhere - it may have been a Joshi note - that this particular scene was indeed influenced by Bob Howard. Also, as remarked by Chris and Chad, this story was written in several different ways, trying out new things.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: ratspiral on August 08, 2011, 12:59:21 AM
I made a necklace inspired by the description of the Innsmouth jewelry.

(http://rat-bites.com/uploads/2/8/8/7/2887929/4602836.jpg)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: TheMediocreYoungishOne -Tom- on August 08, 2011, 03:21:38 AM
Very cool ratspiral!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: mcglothlin.13 on August 09, 2011, 10:59:53 PM

To see some pics from the actual locations referenced in the story try this link:



http://www.flickr.com/photos/55086390@N06/sets/

 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/55086390@N06/sets/)

semiosteve

Great pics!  I've seen plenty of pics online of old Providence (I've even taken some myself when I was there).  But you don't see too many pics of other areas that Lovecraft wrote about.  Thanks for sharing semiosteve.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on August 11, 2011, 07:16:08 AM
Just listened to the latest episode.  Bravo gentlemen, another superb show!

Couldn't stop laughing at your conversation from the beginning!  Don't know how many I could take out, perhaps we need a poll?   :)

I agree that it is kind of tragic the way some of the residents of Innsmouth are still trying to ware clothes as if they are human.  What I always wondered is, are Deep Ones simply humans that turned into what they are now, just like the townsfolk of Innsmouth, or are there 'pure' Deep Ones and then the hybrids - being those that used to be human.  If so, I wonder if there is any form of class devision, like the hybrids have to do the jobs like cleaning the toilets while the true Deep Ones just lounge about eating fish?

On a more serious note, the reason I wonder about this is due to the difficulty they seem to have with their movement and general mobility.  Many of them seem to be moving in different ways.  Does the mutation effect different people slightly differently?  I always kind of assumed that in fact, we never actually get to see a 'pure' Deep One.  I think the 'pure' Deep Ones would be just as adept on land as they are in the sea.  I reckon what the narrator saw were the townsfolk of Innsmouth who are still getting used to their new forms, and since they aren't pure Deep Ones, then maybe they'll never have the same grace as them, whether in or out of the water.  I wondered if the figures emerging from the water were more of Innsmouth's older inhabitants returning for this special occasion.

So yes, that's my theory for what it's worth.  We never actually get to see a 'pure' Deep One.

When I first read The Shadow Over Innsmouth, the word that came to mind as I read of the narrator's gradual acceptance of his hideous ancestry and then his desire to join them, having pretty much become one, was, 'monstrous' - in a good way.  It was just so disturbing and scary, the way he was at first repulsed by what he found in Innsmouth, only to later discover that he was a part of it.  I never considered the idea that the ending was, in a way, a happy one, for the narrator at least, but yes, I can understand why that could be seen as the case.  Yet again, I feel I should bring up the Dark Adventure Radio Theatre radio adaptation of this story, as they handle the ending really well.

As I think I said right at the beginning, as seems to have been the case with lots of people, this was really the story that got me interested in H. P. Lovecraft, albeit through the Call of Cthulhu - Dark Corners of the Earth game.  It was great to then read The Shadow Over Innsmouth and realise what a great story it was in its own right.  I definitely agree that this is Lovecraft at his very best, and to have an episode to discuss the story seems quite fitting to me, so I'll be looking forwards to that.

I may have to track down the stories which inspired The Shadow Over Innsmouth.  As I've said before, I'm particularly fond of horror stories that have a nautical theme.

In the meantime, I'll be looking forwards to next week's discussion.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: ratspiral on August 11, 2011, 10:12:22 AM
If you use tickling as a means of distraction, 5 year olds would be no contest...


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: PresidentManningsPeriwig on August 11, 2011, 10:52:12 AM
Another fantastic series! Chad and Chris are the best!

On a side note, I am tremendously excited to have Robert Price back on next episode!!! I've been consuming his "Bible Geek" show for a couple weeks now (the dude puts out like 3-4 one-hour-plus episodes a WEEK, it's insane) and I love it, but i'm excited to hear him talk some serious Lovecraft again!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Eric Lofgren on August 11, 2011, 03:01:41 PM
I love this podcast to death. All the episodes. And there have been some definite stand out episodes. Shadow Over Innsmouth was by far the funniest, while still adding interest to the topic of HP and his stories. Well done guys!

The idea that the ending is a happy one and that the Deep Ones might actually not be a threat to humanity has never occurred to me until now. And when you think of it, the whole story is told from the human perspective. Perhaps the perspective from the Deep Ones might be quite a bit different. Although we do get a taste of that at the end. And really, what's described to the narrator by way of his Grandmother actually does sound like heaven. At least some sort of enlightened state. How can that be bad? Who wouldn't want the opportunity to live forever, fully content in your place in the universe? And as for the village that was destroyed in the South Seas, if I recall correctly, that was implied because no one was found there when Marsh returned. That could simply mean that everyone decided to accept the oaths and take their immortal place in the ocean, couldn't it?

Ultimately, the narrator accepts his fate, while presumably at the same time Innsmouth and Devil's Reef are being destroyed by humans and the inhabitants of Innsmouth are shipped off to interment camps (or worse). Who really are the bad guys here?   

Anyway, awesome food for thought. I can not wait for next week! :)     


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 11, 2011, 04:02:59 PM
I agree that it is kind of tragic the way some of the residents of Innsmouth are still trying to ware clothes as if they are human.  What I always wondered is, are Deep Ones simply humans that turned into what they are now, just like the townsfolk of Innsmouth, or are there 'pure' Deep Ones and then the hybrids - being those that used to be human.  If so, I wonder if there is any form of class devision, like the hybrids have to do the jobs like cleaning the toilets while the true Deep Ones just lounge about eating fish?

On a more serious note, the reason I wonder about this is due to the difficulty they seem to have with their movement and general mobility.  Many of them seem to be moving in different ways.  Does the mutation effect different people slightly differently?  I always kind of assumed that in fact, we never actually get to see a 'pure' Deep One.  I think the 'pure' Deep Ones would be just as adept on land as they are in the sea.  I reckon what the narrator saw were the townsfolk of Innsmouth who are still getting used to their new forms, and since they aren't pure Deep Ones, then maybe they'll never have the same grace as them, whether in or out of the water.  I wondered if the figures emerging from the water were more of Innsmouth's older inhabitants returning for this special occasion.

You bring up some really good points here, Bulbatron. I think it is important to remember that simply taking the oaths of Dagon and worshiping the Deep Ones, or at least being in cahoots with them, does not grant anyone immortality. You have to be the offspring of a Deep One/Human mating to ever be anything but a cultist. Be that as it may, I've always liked the image of the more developed (degenerated?) hybrids still clinging to human ways and fashions. It made me wonder, and your idea about "pure" Deep Ones gives me even more food for thought, that no matter how advanced your mutation is, you are still a hybrid, and thus still a Deep One. Hell you could move to Utah and you would probably STILL grow gills and the like. But again, I've always thought that everyone develops different features at different rates.

This leads to the idea that you brought up of the horde from the sea being the past citizens of Innsmouth actually coming back for the narrator's initiation or capture. I love that idea! It never occurred to me that those hybrids were anything but generic Deep One hybrid monstrosities. The image of the underside of Devil's Reef being inhabited and developed by former townsfolk who still love their former town is a very poignant one indeed. I have always thought that there are no such things as "pure" Deep Ones, and that the earliest members of the "race" were those humans who venerated Dagon and Hybra and accepted their gifts, thus being "blessed" with transformation and the ability to "go back to the sea." Thus the oldest of the Deep Ones would be the most aquatic, but still have small shreds of humanity, like a general humanoid shape and symmetry. I don't, however, think HPL ever intended there to be a class system of Deep Ones with the hybrids being the lower class. If that were the case, there would be wars and revolts and whatnot, and the Deep Ones seem to be pretty united, at least by the shreds we are given in the story.

Anyway, good episode. And just for the record, I think I could take down a few dozen 5 year-olds. I don't really like children and I have no problem using one to club others concussed heaps.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: kulain on August 11, 2011, 04:47:08 PM
I have always really enjoyed the last line of this story, it seems so poignant to me. I think it is really well portrayed in the ending to the "Dagon" movie as well.

I don't think this sentiment of returning to ancestry is new to Lovecraft, as he has used it in the ending of The Outsider. On discovering that he is the "other" the protagonist embraces it fully and hangs out with ghouls. This also happens to Pickmen in the dream story as he becomes a ghoul, and to a degree the guy in rats in the walls when he starts eating white pulpy dudes.

Personally I don't see the deep ones as being particularly malevolent or wanting to destroy humanity, it seems like they just want to be left alone. I wonder how welcome this guy will be when he goes down there, as he is the one who caused all this bad stuff to happen to the deep ones, blowing up devils reef and such. There is a Brian Lumley story which I think expands on this which is decent, I forget the name though :/


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 11, 2011, 04:49:35 PM
Personally I don't see the deep ones as being particularly malevolent or wanting to destroy humanity, it seems like they just want to be left alone.

Except for the part where they storm in and take over Innsmouth because they weren't getting any human sacrifices.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: kulain on August 11, 2011, 06:30:31 PM
Personally I don't see the deep ones as being particularly malevolent or wanting to destroy humanity, it seems like they just want to be left alone.

Except for the part where they storm in and take over Innsmouth because they weren't getting any human sacrifices.

townspeople shouldn't have renegaded on their deal


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: catamount on August 11, 2011, 06:47:41 PM
Yeah, what ARE they doing with those Shoggoths anyway????


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 11, 2011, 07:28:47 PM
Yea, it is hard for me to accept a point about nonviolence on the part of the Deep Ones when they wiped out half of the town just to prove a point. I definitely think these things need to be wiped out. And besides, the narrator is probably dead anyway. By the end of the story he says that he has acquired the Innsmouth Look, but says nothing about gills. So how is he going to breathe underwater at this point? I've always thought he ended up dead just after breaking his cousin out of the sanitarium. He says he doesn't think he needs to wait for the entire change, but there is a reason Innsmouth is full of half-humans, and that reason is that they can't survive underwater yet.. Personally I love the iea of him getting way too overzealous and killing himself in his mania.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on August 11, 2011, 09:12:05 PM
You bring up some really good points here, Bulbatron. I think it is important to remember that simply taking the oaths of Dagon and worshiping the Deep Ones, or at least being in cahoots with them, does not grant anyone immortality. You have to be the offspring of a Deep One/Human mating to ever be anything but a cultist. Be that as it may, I've always liked the image of the more developed (degenerated?) hybrids still clinging to human ways and fashions. It made me wonder, and your idea about "pure" Deep Ones gives me even more food for thought, that no matter how advanced your mutation is, you are still a hybrid, and thus still a Deep One. Hell you could move to Utah and you would probably STILL grow gills and the like. But again, I've always thought that everyone develops different features at different rates.

This leads to the idea that you brought up of the horde from the sea being the past citizens of Innsmouth actually coming back for the narrator's initiation or capture. I love that idea! It never occurred to me that those hybrids were anything but generic Deep One hybrid monstrosities. The image of the underside of Devil's Reef being inhabited and developed by former townsfolk who still love their former town is a very poignant one indeed. I have always thought that there are no such things as "pure" Deep Ones, and that the earliest members of the "race" were those humans who venerated Dagon and Hybra and accepted their gifts, thus being "blessed" with transformation and the ability to "go back to the sea." Thus the oldest of the Deep Ones would be the most aquatic, but still have small shreds of humanity, like a general humanoid shape and symmetry. I don't, however, think HPL ever intended there to be a class system of Deep Ones with the hybrids being the lower class. If that were the case, there would be wars and revolts and whatnot, and the Deep Ones seem to be pretty united, at least by the shreds we are given in the story.

I'm sure Lovecraft didn't intend half the theories we come up with ever to be considered, but I like to imagine these extra dimensions to the stories.  I bet a lot of us are guilty of that.

I wasn't really serious about the class thing, for as you point out, at least one of the parents' of the hybrids would probably have been a 'pure' Deep One.  Having a human do the dirty with a hybrid would just end up gradually breeding out the Deep One genes - or so I would assume.  So I wouldn't have thought they'd look down on hybrids for that reason, they are at least part Deep One, and again, as you point out, they all seem pretty united.

I still like the idea that we never see a 'pure' Deep One in the story.  We only get to see the hybrids.  This leaves the 'pure' Deep Ones as another unseen menace...

Regarding the Shoggoths, my interpretation is that the Deep Ones are indeed using them as some kind of instrument of war.  Perhaps not yet on a global scale and perhaps their plan was nowhere near fruition at the time of the story.  As Zadok said, it wasn't what they'd already done that scared him, it was what they were going to do...  Did he have some terrible notion of what they might have been planning?

Even if they weren't using the Shoggoths for offensive perposes, after the raid on Innsmouth and the submarine attack, I'd say all bets are off!  If destroying mankind was something they simply couldn't be bothered to do before, who knows what their attitude might be now they've been attacked?  It seems to me that the raid and submarine attack would only really achieve one thing with the Deep Ones, and that's to piss them off!

And as others have speculated, if the narrator did manage to return 'home', would he be greeted with open fins, or perhaps made to do some form of pennance before being accepted?

Right, I'm off to listen to the DART adaptation - again!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: TheMediocreYoungishOne -Tom- on August 11, 2011, 10:08:30 PM
Maybe the shoggoths are used in the mating process as a sort of shape-shifting adapter to go between the genitals and whatever bits the Deep Ones have.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: hsparks on August 11, 2011, 10:13:30 PM
Yes, there's actually a website to calculate how many you can take...

http://www.howmanyfiveyearoldscouldyoutakeinafight.com/ (http://www.howmanyfiveyearoldscouldyoutakeinafight.com/)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Mike J. on August 11, 2011, 11:49:06 PM
"... and they got this jewelry with mahnsters on 'em!"

... I guess I just imagine Zadok belching a lot more when he's talking ...

Love this episode, love this story, love you guys - thanks for podcasting :)

Keeps me sane at work. Mostly sane. Sane-er.

Let me just also say that I am thrilled to have Doctor "Wild Bob" Price on the show again. He's a hoot. I've been listening to his Bible Geek podcast as well, which has the occasional HPL question / reference. And he also does a mean Darth Vader.

... I now want a map of Innsmouth stupid bad. I spent all evening Google Image Searching for maps & charts of Newburyport & Gloucester.


-Mike J.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: TheMediocreYoungishOne -Tom- on August 12, 2011, 03:10:32 AM
I just took that quiz, hsparks.

It said: "You could take on 23 five year old kids in a fight."


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Ruth - CthulhuChick on August 12, 2011, 08:10:43 AM
I love this Deep One Tiara (http://www.keiththompsonart.com/pages/deeponetiara.html) :

(http://www.keiththompsonart.com/images/full/deeponetiara.jpg)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 12, 2011, 08:17:19 AM
I just took that quiz, hsparks.

It said: "You could take on 23 five year old kids in a fight."

It just sent me to a search engine page instead of giving me my score. :(

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Miskatonic Philologus on August 12, 2011, 10:04:20 AM

CthulhuChick, thanks for the pic and the link.

It took no excessive sensitiveness to beauty to make me literally gasp at the strange, unearthly splendour of the alien, opulent phantasy that rested there on a purple velvet cushion...


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: MediaGhost on August 12, 2011, 10:28:41 AM
I agree that it is kind of tragic the way some of the residents of Innsmouth are still trying to ware clothes as if they are human.  What I always wondered is, are Deep Ones simply humans that turned into what they are now, just like the townsfolk of Innsmouth, or are there 'pure' Deep Ones and then the hybrids - being those that used to be human.  If so, I wonder if there is any form of class devision, like the hybrids have to do the jobs like cleaning the toilets while the true Deep Ones just lounge about eating fish?

That's an excellent point!  I guess I'd always just assumed that there were "pure" Deep Ones and the hybrids were necessary to their plan because the original Deep Ones couldn't hack it on land for very long.  Of course, there's nothing in the story to support that supposition.  That's just my own interpretation.

On a more serious note, the reason I wonder about this is due to the difficulty they seem to have with their movement and general mobility.  Many of them seem to be moving in different ways.  Does the mutation effect different people slightly differently?

I'd always thought the author was describing people in different stages of degeneration.  Though now I like the idea that the mutation varies from person to person, 'cause that's a lot scarier!

I always kind of assumed that in fact, we never actually get to see a 'pure' Deep One.  I think the 'pure' Deep Ones would be just as adept on land as they are in the sea.

Yeah, I think you're right that we never get to see an "original."  But I'd assumed just the opposite about them vis the land/sea mobility thing. 


When I first read The Shadow Over Innsmouth, the word that came to mind as I read of the narrator's gradual acceptance of his hideous ancestry and then his desire to join them, having pretty much become one, was, 'monstrous' - in a good way.  It was just so disturbing and scary, the way he was at first repulsed by what he found in Innsmouth, only to later discover that he was a part of it.  I never considered the idea that the ending was, in a way, a happy one, for the narrator at least, but yes, I can understand why that could be seen as the case.

I'd never thought the fate of the narrator was a good one, either.  I mean, he can't stop the change and he can't bring himself to suicide - so it's a lose/lose situation and in the end it drives him mad.  After the change, I'd thought there might be some little part of him, trapped in his own head, so to speak, screaming through eternity in the lightless depths.  Or possibly I'm just morbid.   :D

Yet again, I feel I should bring up the Dark Adventure Radio Theatre radio adaptation of this story, as they handle the ending really well.

DART does a first-rate job as usual, and the props are especially good in this one, but personally I prefer the Atlanta Radio Theatre version.  Harlan Ellison's portrayal of Zadok Allen is spot on and the company does an opening and closing chant that's genuinely chilling.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: hsparks on August 12, 2011, 12:35:29 PM
I just took that quiz, hsparks.

It said: "You could take on 23 five year old kids in a fight."

20.  :( You beat me.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 12, 2011, 12:58:15 PM
No idea how many five-year-olds, I'll say between 5 and 10. William S Burroughs has those fake children in Cities of the Red Night who seem particularly nasty. And then there's all those old fairy stories, those things are really small but seem to manage serious abductions of big people.

When I was thinking about Sich's thought experiment concerning five-year-olds, it came to me that I once read in a book about botany how very many plants have juvenile leaf forms and habits that differ substantially from adult forms. Eucalypts are a good example. The Innsmouth crowd seem to have this same propensity, the adult forms are more saline frog-like while the juvenile forms look like us. There is some deep evolutionary meaning to all this, I'm sure.

Regarding the Shoggoths, I just assumed the Innsmouth Deepers were placidly awaiting the end of Prohibition and planned to ship out bottled Shoggoth as a sort of proxy army, since they seem so busy back in their town doing rites, shuffling around and giving one another the fish-eye. You have to suppose the night life really happens out at Devil Reef as a sort of shallow and superficial breeding ground, maybe even an underwater discotheque in the late 70s: "Do the Shuffle" and "She's Got the Look," the disco-ball litten grottoes, and the next morning the empty plastic beer cups and condoms coalesce into small floating islands...

Frogs don't really live in salt water, though, do they?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 12, 2011, 01:14:41 PM
Ok, finally got the pop-up to work. I can take 23 5-year-olds and 28 90-year-olds. Of course, they didn't as about special lovcraftian training or mutations, but what the heck.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 12, 2011, 01:30:38 PM
Q. What clever slang-like phrase do you use as you punch out a squishy Deep One?

A. In your mouth, sucka! (Try to sound like Mr. T, too)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 12, 2011, 06:45:04 PM
I have to admit, as much as I love the story, I have problems with the ending. It just seems so contrived. I mean, what are the odds? Finding a town full of the Creature From the Black Lagoon's friends and family is wild enough, but to find out later that you're one of them just goes too far, in my opinion. It's too big a coincidence to swallow.

I can just hear Robert Olmstead's thoughts:
"Wait a second, so not only are the seas teeming with blasphemous fish-frogs, but they've taken over a New England town? And they can breed with humans? And my great-grandmother was one of them? What?"

It's like finding out that Ammi Pierce's dad was a meteorite.  ;D


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Yojimbo on August 12, 2011, 06:57:10 PM
Was just in Gloucester on Tuesday, collecting live specimens for the museum where I work. At Folly Cove, we found a LOT of VERY large crabs who appeared to be in the midst of mating season. Creeped me the hell out. Huge invertebrates always do that to me.

I love "Shadow Over Innsmouth." It is by far my favorite Lovecraft tale, and I've enjoyed all four episodes. I don't really need the padding with all the music, though it is nice once in a while. But I am really excited, since this is my favorite story and all, that this is the first tale to get its own post mortem/debriefing. Can't wait!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 12, 2011, 07:14:46 PM
I love this Deep One Tiara (http://www.keiththompsonart.com/pages/deeponetiara.html) :

I'm like 90% sure that's the artwork the HPLHS used for the postcard that comes with the DART Shadow Over Innsmouth CD.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Mike J. on August 12, 2011, 07:38:53 PM
"... but just the same the Marshes still keep on buying a few of those native trade things—mostly glass and rubber gewgaws, they tell me."

Obviously dildos, probably left over from the smutty version of the story. Editorial fatigue, ya know.


-MJ


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Jacknutting on August 12, 2011, 07:58:54 PM
I have always liked this story, and now that I've re-read it and listened to the podcast episodes discussing it (I have to concur with everyone else here, great job guys, I've been laughing out loud on the commuter train), I have a theory about the biology of the Deep Ones.

We know that they live "forever", barring accident/murder/whatever, so they don't need to reproduce very often to maintain population size. What if the interbreeding with humans is, in fact, the only breeding they do? They only breeding they can do, even. Perhaps their species co-evolved with humans, and through some evolutionary quirk over millennia they lost the ability to reproduce on their own. In which case they are completely dependent on humanity. This would explain the apparent imbalance in the "trade", where the Deep Ones receive trinkets/sacrifices/"entertainment" in exchange for swarms of fish and freaking GOLD. The Deep Ones are probably doing a lot of work to bring all the fish, let alone manufacture jewelry.

This would also explain the story's conjecture that the Deep Ones could destroy mankind but have "no interest" in doing so. Indeed, it would be completely against their own self-interest to destroy the species they need to breed with.

This even suggests a non-ritualistic use for the human sacrifices they get: Perhaps they need human bodies for surgical purposes, to heal wounded individuals or transplant organs or whatnot.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on August 13, 2011, 07:29:49 AM
I have always liked this story, and now that I've re-read it and listened to the podcast episodes discussing it (I have to concur with everyone else here, great job guys, I've been laughing out loud on the commuter train), I have a theory about the biology of the Deep Ones.

We know that they live "forever", barring accident/murder/whatever, so they don't need to reproduce very often to maintain population size. What if the interbreeding with humans is, in fact, the only breeding they do? They only breeding they can do, even. Perhaps their species co-evolved with humans, and through some evolutionary quirk over millennia they lost the ability to reproduce on their own. In which case they are completely dependent on humanity. This would explain the apparent imbalance in the "trade", where the Deep Ones receive trinkets/sacrifices/"entertainment" in exchange for swarms of fish and freaking GOLD. The Deep Ones are probably doing a lot of work to bring all the fish, let alone manufacture jewelry.

This would also explain the story's conjecture that the Deep Ones could destroy mankind but have "no interest" in doing so. Indeed, it would be completely against their own self-interest to destroy the species they need to breed with.

This even suggests a non-ritualistic use for the human sacrifices they get: Perhaps they need human bodies for surgical purposes, to heal wounded individuals or transplant organs or whatnot.

Earlier in the thread I suggested that the Deep Ones, Dagon and Hydra were all creations of the Elder Things along with all other life on Earth.  I based this upon what I read in At the Mountains of Madness, but I must admit, I'm not a big fan of the idea that Dagon and Hydra are merely creations of the Elder Things.  Reading your ideas, Jacknutting, I must say I think they make a lot of sense and they help me to put another spin on my own theory which I like a lot more than my previous ideas.  That being, that Dagon and Hydra - who I always think of as being gigantic Deep Ones - did indeed come from - elsewhere...  They may have bought many Deep Ones with them, but then arriving on Earth, they (as you speculated) gradually lost the ability to pro-create, so they had to use humans when necessary to keep up their numbers, causing what I've been calling the 'pure' Deep Ones to be the ones were were descended directly from, or who were brought to Earth by, Dagon and Hydra.  So, as I said, I reckon we never actually get to see a 'pure' Deep One in The Shadow Over Innsmouth and even the ones who the narrator sees coming out of the water near the end, are just generations-old human Deep Ones who are just coming ashore for this special occasion!

The idea about the sacrifices being for an altogether more scientific and practical purpose is also an idea a really like and makes more sense, based on what I've just said.

The notion that the Deep Ones feel they probably shouldn't destroy mankind does make rather a mess of my theory that they were preparing to use the shoggoths as instruments of war and destruction, but I do think there is definitely some diabolical scheme afoot, again, due to what Zadok said about being worried about what they were going to do.  So, maybe the Deep Ones were planning simply to emerge from the oceans and enslave mankind, and they were going to use the shoggoths to suppress any resistance.  So, after the submarine attack and the Inssmouth raids, will they move this plan forwards?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Ruth - CthulhuChick on August 13, 2011, 08:58:35 AM
I love this Deep One Tiara (http://www.keiththompsonart.com/pages/deeponetiara.html) :

I'm like 90% sure that's the artwork the HPLHS used for the postcard that comes with the DART Shadow Over Innsmouth CD.

Yep, that's the site of the guy who designed it for them.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: fubarinpittsburgh on August 13, 2011, 01:08:50 PM
In part two when Chad said the line about "getting gods who give you good stuff" it reminded me of this song-

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pznQiLHvWHE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: fubarinpittsburgh on August 13, 2011, 01:49:07 PM
I never understood as a teen why people thought Lovecraft was racist and neither did my father. (this was back in the 90s and I had not read all of his work at that point). Especially because of this story that I always saw as a "Weird Tales" version of the British reaction to native Americans.

The Deep Ones show up. Give away some shiny bobbles. Seem nice at first. Then the slavery, rape, destruction of your beliefs, and you are forced to worship a god who gives away free fish.

Sound familiar?

At least the people of Innsmouth got some gold out of it. My people sold Manhattan for $24 worth of beads.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: wereguppy on August 13, 2011, 03:04:13 PM
Here's a baseless train of Mythos thought I had while re-reading this story.

The protagonist, Robert Olmstead, mentions "...I was the grandson of Eliza Orne of Arkham, who was born in 1867..." and that Eliza's father was Benjamin Orne.

Are these children of Simon/Jedediah Orne (aka. Joseph Nadek) who left Salem between 1720 and 1750? It wasn't until going over Innsmouth again in preparation for the podcast that I paid attention to the Orne name and the mention of it at the end brought me back to Charles Dexter Ward and "what if" Orne and Curwen went through the same situation, but at different times?

Because Curwen sent Orne the details of his contingency plan so that some one would look back, yet know not why. Charles learns "certain letters from Providence citizens to Rev. Thomas Barnard and others brought about his quiet removal to part unknown" and that the citizens of Salem "took action in 1771".

What I can't figure out is whether "brought about his quiet removal" means that they disposed of Orne or whether Orne learned of the letters and decided to quit Salem. Was he removed or did he remove himself?
Whatever the case, the "certain letters from Providence" indicates that Orne had some manner of activity in the New England area.

All that to say: I had this image of an untold "The Case of Charles Dexter Orne" involving Simon successfully returning only to discover that he's part Marsh.

His poor kids must be plagued by small talk questions like: "So where are you from?"
~ "Well, I'm part fish-frog on my mother's side and part deathless-necromancer on my father's side. Family reunions suck because half the family wants to swim and the other half wants to reanimate dead scientists. During middle school and high school I spent my summers at my uncle's place herding Shoggoths in this crappy town with no mall. And one year I had drive out to Virginia with dad to exhume bodies because mom wanted an authentic Thanksgiving with the original pilgrims and Wampanoag indians. We finally managed to get everyone seated and somewhat calmed when grandma came shamble-hopping to the table. She started to bless the meal but only got as far as 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh' when the reaminated lost it and we had to call everyone back down. Of course I had to sweep everyone back up. It was a total bust."


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Mike J. on August 13, 2011, 03:05:33 PM
See, the moral of the story is: If you find out you have some 'foreign' ancestry, even as small as 1/32 or 1/64, you should do the decent thing and kill yourself immediately, as you are an unspeakable abomination.

Otherwise, the foreigners will 'flood' the land and destroy civilization.


-MJ


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Mike J. on August 13, 2011, 03:07:20 PM
Wereguppy: Awesome  :D


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 13, 2011, 03:07:48 PM
Yes, fubar. It sounds familiar. By the way, you can interpret it as ageist more than racist, which also recalls the Inuit tradition of elderly committing suicide by cold. The protagonist contemplates suicide in Shadow, and death is mentioned as preferable to old age as a Deep One elsewhere. In fact, the Vinland sagas seem to indicate the "skraelings" or natives were more Eskimo than Amerind in whatever area the Norse were exploring (Lovecraft thought it was nearby). The descriptions of the Innsmouth folk could also be interpreted as a racism-colored caricature of Eskimos rather than South Sea frog-people.

Compare the following with the passage in Shadow over Steve concerning Dagon and worshipping effective gods who deliver:

1342: Gisle Oddsson's Annal. Sometime before 1673 the Icelandic bishop Gisle Oddsson compiled a chronology of Old Norse history. His entry for the year 1342 includes the statement that the "inhabitants of Greenland" had "spontaneously deserted the true Christian faith and religion...repudiating all good morals and true virtues," and had turned to "Americae populos," literally "the people of America." Oddsson was making good use of the new terminology, but when he was writing, the only people in Arctic America were the Eskimos. The meaning of his statement is not necessarily that the Greenlanders had converted to an Eskimo religion. It probably refers to some specific rebellion against the church's prhobition of commerce with the heathen Eskimos. Such an action would be quite likely if the royal supply ship had not show up for a while. In fact, there is no record of any commerce between Greenland and Norway from 1327 until the ship bearing one Ivar Baardsson left Norway in 1341. It probably wintered in Iceland and arrived in Greenland during this incident effectively of rebellion.
--James Robert Enterline, Erikson, Eskimos and Columbus: Medieval European Knowledge of America, page 129

(Enterline doesn't seem to provide any evidence there was any ban on "trading with the heathen," but that's another story).

Which leads to another possible literary connection with, or current underlying, Shadow: the "lost" Roanoke colony. Presumably, they "went native," as the Norse Greenlanders are alleged to have above. The "first European" born in America, Virginia Dare, is prefigured by Snorri Thorfinnson, who managed to swim away. Replace "Gone to Croatoan" with "Gone to R'lyeh" and the Deep Ones become the real, original Americans, putting into shore for a while. The marginal lost Americans survive as a current, a submarine current, and the "taint" they pose is the taint of America itself threatening European sensibilities.

Is it revenge? Is it just things coming back full circle, cosmic justice? Are the Deep Ones more European, or more American? Or are they metis, mestizos, or something else? Are they planning to distribute army blankets to Americans infected with Shoggoth? Will there be trails of tears for the middle class marchers to concentration camps, boarding schools to reeducate them, followed by the fate of Zadok Allen either on the reservation, or on the streets of R'lyeh?

"Bless us, o Lord, and give us this our daily seal."


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Mike J. on August 13, 2011, 03:34:15 PM
I've tried to locate the probable site of Innsmouth, given the clues in the story:

"... wide salt marshes, desolate and unpeopled, keep neighbours off from Innsmouth on the landward side ..."

"... directly from ancient Newburyport to Arkham ..." - Somewhere around Newburyport.

"... No railroad now—B. & M. never went through, and the branch line from Rowley was given up years ago ..." - Somewhere near Rowley.

"... Everybody trades mostly here or in Arkham or Ipswich ..." - Somewhere near Ipswich.

"I took a seat far behind him, but on the same side of the bus, since I wished to watch the shore during the journey." - Innsmouth therefore must be south of Newburyport, since the driver's side of the bus will be toward the shore.

"... passing the Lower Green and Parker River, and finally emerging into a long, monotonous stretch of open shore country." - Innsmouth must be farther south than this, then.

"Out the window I could see … the sandy line of Plum Island, and we presently drew very near the beach as our narrow road veered off from the main highway to Rowley and Ipswich … At last we lost sight of Plum Island and saw … the open Atlantic on our left" - Innsmouth must be south of Plum Island.

"Then we ... beheld the outspread valley beyond, where the Manuxet joins the sea just north of the long line of cliffs that culminate in Kingsport Head and veer off toward Cape Ann." - Innsmouth must be North of Cape Ann.

Therefore, cross-referencing the non-fictional locations, I believe Lovecraft intended Innsmouth to be in the marshy area east or east-north-east of Rowley, though possibly as far south as just northwest of Great Neck:

http://gndn.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/where-is-h-p-lovecrafts-innsmouth/ (http://gndn.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/where-is-h-p-lovecrafts-innsmouth/)


-MJ


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 13, 2011, 03:37:20 PM
I triangulated to about the same place a few years ago, and have been trying to forget ever since. Thanks a lot.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: fubarinpittsburgh on August 13, 2011, 10:02:47 PM
I've tried to locate the probable site of Innsmouth, given the clues in the story:

"... wide salt marshes, desolate and unpeopled, keep neighbours off from Innsmouth on the landward side ..."

"... directly from ancient Newburyport to Arkham ..." - Somewhere around Newburyport.

"... No railroad now—B. & M. never went through, and the branch line from Rowley was given up years ago ..." - Somewhere near Rowley.

"... Everybody trades mostly here or in Arkham or Ipswich ..." - Somewhere near Ipswich.

"I took a seat far behind him, but on the same side of the bus, since I wished to watch the shore during the journey." - Innsmouth therefore must be south of Newburyport, since the driver's side of the bus will be toward the shore.

"... passing the Lower Green and Parker River, and finally emerging into a long, monotonous stretch of open shore country." - Innsmouth must be farther south than this, then.

"Out the window I could see … the sandy line of Plum Island, and we presently drew very near the beach as our narrow road veered off from the main highway to Rowley and Ipswich … At last we lost sight of Plum Island and saw … the open Atlantic on our left" - Innsmouth must be south of Plum Island.

"Then we ... beheld the outspread valley beyond, where the Manuxet joins the sea just north of the long line of cliffs that culminate in Kingsport Head and veer off toward Cape Ann." - Innsmouth must be North of Cape Ann.

Therefore, cross-referencing the non-fictional locations, I believe Lovecraft intended Innsmouth to be in the marshy area east or east-north-east of Rowley, though possibly as far south as just northwest of Great Neck:

http://gndn.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/where-is-h-p-lovecrafts-innsmouth/ (http://gndn.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/where-is-h-p-lovecrafts-innsmouth/)


-MJ

Who's up for a road trip? On the way we can also hit Hobb's End New Hampshire and Missing Mile North Carolina.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: TheMediocreYoungishOne -Tom- on August 14, 2011, 12:03:55 AM
Innsmouth would be about 1 and 1/2 hours from me, about.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 14, 2011, 10:12:47 AM
I'll have to swim from here. It should take just about one week.

There is an early-antique-internet photo collection of a road trip to Innsmouth made in the 1970s. That puts it closer in time to HPL's Innsmouth, and I presume a lot of things have changed since then. Anyway, it would give you an idea of which roads to take. Plus there are some cool pictures from Providence and surrounding area.

Oops, it's gone. It was under "Trip to Innsmouth" here:

http://www.satanicreds.org/satanicreds/art-cthulhufun.html

I guess the wayback machine probably didn't keep the snapshots, either.

http://eodagon23.byethost24.com/eoDagon23/trip_to_innsmouth/innsindex.html

(I think I copied them all to CD, though. They had a shot of Plum Island or Devil Reef or something.)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Mike J. on August 14, 2011, 07:47:06 PM
As an aside, does anyone know if HPL drew-up a map of Innsmouth? I know we have a map of Arkham he sketched. This story is so oddly full of street-by-street directions, it seems like he must have at least drawn something for reference.

Incidentally, I've been 'following along' with Messrs. Lehman & Branney's replica prop map from their DART CD, and it appears to be excellent. Accurate, and looks exactly as it should (a quick sketch).


-MJ


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 15, 2011, 10:22:59 AM
It's like finding out that Ammi Pierce's dad was a meteorite.  ;D

BWAH-HA-HA!!

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: sickboy on August 15, 2011, 03:50:03 PM
We know that they live "forever", barring accident/murder/whatever, so they don't need to reproduce very often to maintain population size. What if the interbreeding with humans is, in fact, the only breeding they do? They only breeding they can do, even. Perhaps their species co-evolved with humans, and through some evolutionary quirk over millennia they lost the ability to reproduce on their own. In which case they are completely dependent on humanity. This would explain the apparent imbalance in the "trade", where the Deep Ones receive trinkets/sacrifices/"entertainment" in exchange for swarms of fish and freaking GOLD. The Deep Ones are probably doing a lot of work to bring all the fish, let alone manufacture jewelry.

This would also explain the story's conjecture that the Deep Ones could destroy mankind but have "no interest" in doing so. Indeed, it would be completely against their own self-interest to destroy the species they need to breed with.

This even suggests a non-ritualistic use for the human sacrifices they get: Perhaps they need human bodies for surgical purposes, to heal wounded individuals or transplant organs or whatnot.

Been a while since I read this, but this is similar to how I took it. I figure the Deep Ones have evolved an inability to breed (if they ever could) amongst themselves as a way to keep their immortal population down.  This leaves them reliant on interbreeding to replace those killed in accidents/fighting/etc, or indeed to boost or even modify their population. I think I'm right in saying that Shoggoth are water-based but aspire to live on land? Maybe the events at Innsmouth are based solely on them serving the Shoggoth and bringing them out of the ocean?

Someone shoot me down if I'm wrong!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Ruth - CthulhuChick on August 15, 2011, 05:50:04 PM
Been a while since I read this, but this is similar to how I took it. I figure the Deep Ones have evolved an inability to breed (if they ever could) amongst themselves as a way to keep their immortal population down.  This leaves them reliant on interbreeding to replace those killed in accidents/fighting/etc, or indeed to boost or even modify their population. I think I'm right in saying that Shoggoth are water-based but aspire to live on land? Maybe the events at Innsmouth are based solely on them serving the Shoggoth and bringing them out of the ocean?

Someone shoot me down if I'm wrong!

What were the Deep Ones created for, anyway? I wonder if the Great Old Ones created them specifically not to be able to breed. You create enough immortal slaves and then if you need more, you create them too. But you don't want them to breed so that they don't end up overpowering the Great Old Ones somehow. With immortal beings, that could eventually happen and they have forever to worry about.

However if they discovered that they could interbreed...maybe a genetic accident of their/our creators by using too much similar material...then perhaps their plan is to eventually create enough immortals who are a bit more hybridized and land-friendly and just take over everything.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 15, 2011, 05:58:26 PM
Maybe the events at Innsmouth are based solely on them serving the Shoggoth and bringing them out of the ocean?

If the shoggoths want to move to land, do they really need anyone's help to do so? Who's gonna stop them? Not a bunch of feeble little monkeys, that's for sure.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Chad Fifer on August 15, 2011, 07:29:00 PM
In part two when Chad said the line about "getting gods who give you good stuff" it reminded me of this song-

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pznQiLHvWHE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Good call! That opening sample was on my mind when I said that - my band opened for Electric Hellfire Club a lot in the 90s and we toured around the Midwest with them occasionally - the lead singer Thomas Thorne actually produced our first demo (on their second album we get a special thanks - Pitch Black Manor). Ha - never would've thought in a MILLION years that somebody would catch the reference.

I know I've used one of the tracks that Thomas produced at the end of one of our episodes, can't remember which now...

-Chad


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: MediaGhost on August 16, 2011, 06:40:10 AM
"Of course I had to sweep everyone back up. It was a total bust."

Epic!   :D :D :D


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 16, 2011, 08:24:53 AM
Maybe the events at Innsmouth are based solely on them serving the Shoggoth and bringing them out of the ocean?

If the shoggoths want to move to land, do they really need anyone's help to do so? Who's gonna stop them? Not a bunch of feeble little monkeys, that's for sure.

See, personally I think the Deep Ones have nothing to do with any Old Ones master plans. They are frightening monsters who worship bigger, nastier monsters, just like all of the other races in Lovecraft. Tying them all together into a master plan kind of goes against Lovecraft's "shit happens" view of the universe as a whole.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 16, 2011, 01:15:26 PM
Agreed.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: kulain on August 16, 2011, 04:23:56 PM
yeah i dont think the old ones have any plans for the deep ones. if men are accidents, so may be the deep ones. like the degenerate cultists that worship white pulpy things in the swamps they might worship dagon but that doesn't mean dagon gives 2 shits about them.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Ruth - CthulhuChick on August 16, 2011, 05:42:41 PM
So all they want is love and companionship? Aww.... <3


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: TheMediocreYoungishOne -Tom- on August 16, 2011, 06:42:44 PM
So all they want is love and companionship? Aww.... <3

...and fried chicken for all!

Wait... That's my presidential campaign slogan. Nevermind.

Vote TMYO.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: MediaGhost on August 17, 2011, 06:12:56 AM
So all they want is love and companionship? Aww.... <3

...and fried chicken for all!

Wait... That's my presidential campaign slogan. Nevermind.

Vote TMYO.

Well, first I'd like to hear your opinion on the issue of...did you say 'fried chicken?'  TMYO 4 Prez!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 17, 2011, 08:12:57 AM
So all they want is love and companionship? Aww.... <3

And human nookie. Never. ever forget the human nookie.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 17, 2011, 12:20:44 PM
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."

--Old Man Marsh's son George, 43rd president of these United States

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Jcrk6jGfo

(as in, "coeds"? "Know" in the Biblical sense?)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Danial on August 17, 2011, 12:51:47 PM
I created a wordcloud for this story just tonight. For those who might not know, a wordcloud takes the most common words and sizes them proportionately. This is how it looked:

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z136/Danial79/Shadow.jpg)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Ruth - CthulhuChick on August 17, 2011, 07:17:10 PM
So all they want is love and companionship? Aww.... <3

And human nookie. Never. ever forget the human nookie.

Bob

"Companionship."


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: fubarinpittsburgh on August 17, 2011, 07:28:20 PM
So all they want is love and companionship? Aww.... <3

And human nookie. Never. ever forget the human nookie.

Bob

They have gay fish as well-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wece0jIghJY


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 18, 2011, 08:40:13 AM
No... I think even the Deep Ones have their limits when it comes to sex with humans. I don't think they have a problem with homosexuality, but Kanye West? Yeah, I think he might just be pushing things to far even for hideous fish-frogs from the depths of the abyss.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 19, 2011, 07:18:03 AM
Is it just me, or does Zadok just affirm a little too much that he didn't take the third pledge? Is he perhaps not gluborheatic, as Nietzsche was syphilitic, when he wrote all that really strange stuff?

Take the pledge, take the plunge, catch the splash, never look back.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 19, 2011, 08:11:26 AM
You know, OldBook, I think you are now always going to be Troy McClure to me. ;)

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 19, 2011, 04:49:01 PM
Everyone's a criticus eh. Anyway, I should have posted that incisive insight of mine in that other thread about doing Old Ones. Isn't Friday almost over? Is it just me?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Ruth - CthulhuChick on August 19, 2011, 05:31:21 PM
You know, OldBook, I think you are now always going to be Troy McClure to me. ;)

Bob

Omigod, Troy McClure made a bargain with the Deep Ones!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Mike J. on August 19, 2011, 10:05:28 PM
Are Zadok's "Kanakys" the same as the "Kanakas" on the Alert in Call of Cthulhu?

Wikipedia says: "Kanaka, a word, meaning 'people' or 'person', used by various Polynesian people to refer to themselves."

How generic or specific did Lovecraft intend it to be?

If they were blood relatives or descendants, it might explain their apparent propensity to worship sea monsters.


-MJ


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 20, 2011, 01:08:53 AM
The wrap-up for "Innsmouth" just might be my favorite episode of the whole show. Just getting Robert M. Price to expound at length on "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" was like Christmas, and the Donovan Loucks interview was downright fascinating. Although I am a little disappointed that the guys overlooked the one MAJOR problem with living in Arkham:

(http://kimsters.wikispaces.com/file/view/Image_80_tap_water.gif/30241093/Image_80_tap_water.gif)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: osyrisdiamond on August 20, 2011, 02:40:36 AM
The wrap-up for "Innsmouth" just might be my favorite episode of the whole show. Just getting Robert M. Price to expound at length on "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" was like Christmas, and the Donovan Loucks interview was downright fascinating. Although I am a little disappointed that the guys overlooked the one MAJOR problem with living in Arkham:

(http://kimsters.wikispaces.com/file/view/Image_80_tap_water.gif/30241093/Image_80_tap_water.gif)

I would love to see what would happen if they put fish into the reservoir. :D


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 20, 2011, 02:47:38 AM
Are Zadok's "Kanakys" the same as the "Kanakas" on the Alert in Call of Cthulhu?

Wikipedia says: "Kanaka, a word, meaning 'people' or 'person', used by various Polynesian people to refer to themselves."

How generic or specific did Lovecraft intend it to be?

If they were blood relatives or descendants, it might explain their apparent propensity to worship sea monsters.


-MJ

Yes, that's just Zadok's dialect there. Kanaka was the generic term for Hawaiian in America about 100 years ago. By extension it meant Pacific Islander.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: RedHookDave on August 20, 2011, 11:04:17 AM
Isn't the Arkham water reservoir on top of the old Gardner place?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 21, 2011, 11:55:04 AM
Isn't the Arkham water reservoir on top of the old Gardner place?

Yep. At least it was being planned that way. Whether or not that actually went through has never been said as far as I know.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: bar1scorpio on August 21, 2011, 12:20:02 PM
One more thing - we all assume that the Robert Olmstead is a Deep One.

What if he's only snapped, and turned Quisling due to the trauma of his experience?  What if he's reading more into his family history than there is?  What if he's just going to wander out to Innsmouth Harbor, and drown himself believing he can breathe underwater?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: davidsverse on August 21, 2011, 03:20:35 PM
Robert M. Price annoys me for the 2nd time.  I freely admit I am not an expert, but some of his connections sound very tenuous to me.  What he said about the people of Insmouth hiding from their sin seems especially to be viewed from the wrong direction.   

The interview with Loucks was amazing and I wish it had gone on for another hour...or been the whole show. 


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: semiosteve on August 21, 2011, 04:12:43 PM
One more thing - we all assume that the Robert Olmstead is a Deep One.

What if he's only snapped, and turned Quisling due to the trauma of his experience?  What if he's reading more into his family history than there is?  What if he's just going to wander out to Innsmouth Harbor, and drown himself believing he can breathe underwater?


Why did his Uncle then shoot himself after a visit to Innsmouth?

Why would his cousin land up with the same delusion at the Canton Sanitarium - probably the Molly Starks one that is to this day considered one of the most haunted sites in the U.S. BTW....


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 21, 2011, 05:21:02 PM
And let's not forget the family jewelry.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Mike J. on August 21, 2011, 06:50:57 PM
I've assumed that, yes, he is a half-breed Deep One, and toward the end of the story we 'hear' him going insane.

Going from his (sane) suspicions to almost certain knowledge (still sane), then from despair / near suicide (still sane) to acceptance / exaltation (insanity).

Assuming that he is a Deep One, and that the dreams are real telepathic communication from his aunt (or whatever), I think the 'normal' reaction to this might still be suicide or some kind of violent action against Innsmouth and the Deep Ones.

Robert was never socialized in what would be the Innsmouth-preferred way: he wasn't always aware of and surrounded by the human-hybrid Deep One society, history, religion and destiny that nearly all the hybrids are.

He grew up in 'normal' society, always knowing himself to be human and 'normal.' Let me draw a clumsy parallel here: assume a normal person is suddenly, irrefutably informed that they will become a werewolf - what then happens in most werewolf stories? Don't they usually try to imprison or kill themselves?

Turning into the monster is generally a bad thing. The Deep Ones are plotting some kind of slow advance on humanity, if nothing else (the 'bigger city next time'). They are stockpiling shoggoths. They accept human sacrifices. I think we can reasonably assume they're evil.

Therefore, how could a sane person rejoice at becoming an evil, inhuman monster?


-MJ


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Miskatonic Philologus on August 21, 2011, 09:31:21 PM

The fine line that HPL treads is whether the narrator is indeed insane, or, having realized the greater potential being a Deep One, he then abandons his humanity in favor of it.

Ergo, does the narrator "go over to the dark side", or does he evovle to a higher form of life? The textual evidence favors the latter, but ultimately it's up to the reader to decide...


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Ruth - CthulhuChick on August 22, 2011, 06:46:38 PM
On an unrelated note, I spent some time in the ocean today and didn't see any Deep Ones. I was ...actually, not disappointed.

And back on topic, Olmstead reminds me of werewolves on Buffy. One of our main recurring characters is a werewolf who knows that he's a monster and has himself locked up every full moon (and the two days surrounding it, I believe). He treats it like an illness/curse and even travels off to Tibet to learn how to control it. He can still appreciate some of the good things, like better sense of smell even when the moon isn't full, but he sees it as bad overall.

He then meets up with a young lady who sees it as something awesome. She's all about giving into one's animal side because it's not their fault they got bitten and if they're animals, then they're just being animals. This makes her monster-of-the-week. Olmstead's kind of like her.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on August 23, 2011, 12:08:39 PM
So many different ways to interpret this story!  I suppose whether or not one 'gives in' to the change might depend somewhat on how one feels about one's life as a human.  I think the narrator seemed pretty happy with his life, so I think it's reasonably natural that he'd resist it.  But somebody who's life had been mostly unhappy might embrace this change as a chance at a new beginning.

The other question to ask is, does the change actually have an effect on the victim's mind?  I mean, perhaps the make-up of their brain actually - literally, changes their mind, so that even a person who was sane and happy with their life up until that point, might find themselves embracing the life and culture of a Deep One, just because their mind has been altered in such a way that it cannot help but do that.

I've lust listened to the Innsmouth wrap-up.  The interviews were fascinating and really, all of these episodes about The Shadow Over Innsmouth have, if anything, cemented The Shadow Over Innsmouth as being easily my favourite H. P. Lovecraft story.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Miskatonic Philologus on August 23, 2011, 12:39:06 PM
On an unrelated note, I spent some time in the ocean today and didn't see any Deep Ones. I was ...actually, not disappointed.

And back on topic, Olmstead reminds me of werewolves on Buffy. One of our main recurring characters is a werewolf who knows that he's a monster and has himself locked up every full moon (and the two days surrounding it, I believe). He treats it like an illness/curse and even travels off to Tibet to learn how to control it. He can still appreciate some of the good things, like better sense of smell even when the moon isn't full, but he sees it as bad overall.

He then meets up with a young lady who sees it as something awesome. She's all about giving into one's animal side because it's not their fault they got bitten and if they're animals, then they're just being animals. This makes her monster-of-the-week. Olmstead's kind of like her.


Just wanted to say, that I LOVE the Buffy and Angel series! I am sure there are parallels between the two.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 23, 2011, 03:34:40 PM
Robert M. Price annoys me for the 2nd time.  I freely admit I am not an expert, but some of his connections sound very tenuous to me.  What he said about the people of Insmouth hiding from their sin seems especially to be viewed from the wrong direction.   

The interview with Loucks was amazing and I wish it had gone on for another hour...or been the whole show. 

Robert Price brought up some interesting points, and as Bulbatron points out there are very many ways to interpret this story. Unfortunately Robert Price got his own interpretation slightly wrong. I'll try to explain.

He had the insight that the Innsmouth folk were attempting to assimilate or synthesize their own faith to what was discovered in the South Sea (Caroline Islands?) by old Captain Marsh, and he points to the spread of Hellenism among the Jews of the Roman period as an example of the back-and-forth that goes on with that. And Lovecraft gives us a very good hint that he is toying with that period by naming the town drunk "Zadok." We sense the same kind of alienation perhaps the ancient Jews felt at seeing their Jewish culture turn Greek in the events of several centuries in Innsmouth.

BUT.

The Dagon cultists fully embrace the new religion, and the trappings of the old religion, Protestantism of the New England variety, are only used as subterfuge, we assume, historically: they have taken over the church building and now their high priest parades about openly wearing the tiara. They certainly don't seem guided at all by the desire to preserve something of their old faith, judging from the few glimpses we are given. They are a classic cult: they attempt to return the lost tiara by bribery then resort to murder to deal with their own member who betrayed them, the drunk guy who sold it to the historical society in the next town over. This can't really be seen as an attempt to reconcile Christianity and Dagonism, to find common things and then to secretly continue practicing Christianity under the guise of Dagonism.

The only person in the story who seems to fit Robert Price's model is Zadok Allen; he seems to be the only one with any desire to preserve anything at all, if only as memories of what has happened. As the town drunk he's the lone voice in the wilderness tooling around in animal skins and eating bugs. In other words, he's powerless at this point, and has no following but certainly enough enemies whose tolerance only extends so far. So Zadok is the last of his line, at a dead end.

What Robert Price proposes could happen in the future, if Dagonism spread to other towns, but it shows no signs of doing so. Adherents seem to be aware of their status as outsiders in the minority in the culture/society at large, and while they probably seek to subvert that society for their own purposes, it doesn't seem like they're actively proseletyzing now (ca. 1927?) or in the recent past.

It's interesting why Lovecraft hinted at this period by using the name "Zadok." It seems like a brilliant device, very Armageddon, and adds to the sense of the end is nigh. I know Adolphe de Castro sent him A LOT of work to look over, and I know de Castro wrote on the Second Temple period at length in his Jewish Forerunners of Christianity, so I wonder if Lovecraft lifted some inspiration from that book for Shadow over Innsmouth.

Speaking of speculative fiction, the latest media blitz on Libya--you know, the one where they tried to convince Libyans and the world Tripoli had fallen and Khaddafi had fled etc. etc. using "documentary evidence such as al Jazzeera and CNN reports--was called Operation Mermaid Dawn. They allegedly were running insurgents into Tripoli harbor to carry out terrorist attacks inside the city since the insurgents couldn't gain access by land. "They" meaning British and French special forces, who did a large share of the terrorism, not the "freedom fighters" who are actually recycled al Qaeda assets (see the "umad Arab?" thread under General for more on fake al Qaeda/al CIAda). Since the head of American al Qaeda is a KNOWN Lovecraft fanatic, I guess they really wanted to call it Operation Deep Ones, but Langley said that was just too silly. Whereas "Mermaid Dawn" sounds quite...silly, but not as silly. Or at least not as obvious. inb4 SEALs and frogmen. :)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 23, 2011, 03:40:59 PM
Since the head of American al Qaeda is a KNOWN Lovecraft fanatic...

Wait, what?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 23, 2011, 03:48:41 PM
it's all in the "umad Arab?" thread. But don't worry, al Qaeda is fictional anyway.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Mike J. on August 23, 2011, 08:04:55 PM
Yeah, I don't see Innsmouth preserving much of New England Christianity. As far as the reader can tell, only a rather flimsy facade of normalcy is put up in front of the Esoteric Order of Dagon. Drive through the town and you might not notice anything awry (probably no human sacrifice in the streets), but ask any outsider a question and you'll get an ear-full, if only of bizarre rumors about devils, imps, cults and inbreeding. They even use the word Dagon in their name - not too subtle.

I do like our boy's idea of the Deep Ones taking over in a reverse-colonialism fashion. The Deep Ones offer the natives shiny trinkets to get what they want in exchange (human sacrifice?). Then the Deep Ones slowly erase the native culture with their own, through intermarriage and religion. Any problems? Kill all the natives who oppose... So their control slowly spreads across the land...


-Mike J.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 24, 2011, 04:59:10 AM
This whole "hybridization between humans and alien overlords" thing has become a very popular theme lately. Lovecraft sort of beat the modern UFOlogists to the punch on that one. Shadow could be an episode of X-Files, easily.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 24, 2011, 08:39:49 AM
Yeah, and it probably was if you go back and watch the show enough to find it.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 25, 2011, 04:37:32 AM
That's right, there was. Moulder and Scully drive a rental to the beachfront community of Tahola, Washington on the Quinault Indian Reservation on the 4th of July, 1990, and instantly sense something is dreadfully wrong. Three Hispanic boys on the beach are the only people who will talk to them, and they're only there because Texaco brought them in to do construction on the gas station...


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 25, 2011, 09:09:49 AM
Really? That's uncanny...

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 25, 2011, 09:46:21 AM
Uncanny, but not true. Well, not "literally" true.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 25, 2011, 01:27:56 PM
Uncanny, but not true. Well, not "literally" true.

You bastard, you totally got me with that post. I would have spent time looking for that episode on Netflix. Curses to you, OldBook. Curses...

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 26, 2011, 06:32:28 AM
It was July 5th, anyway, and probably 1989. You're a fun one to tease, Bob. Sorry.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 26, 2011, 08:17:07 AM
It was July 5th, anyway, and probably 1989. You're a fun one to tease, Bob. Sorry.

Yeah, that's what the Mrs. says too... :-\

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: ahtzib on August 28, 2011, 12:57:06 AM
Yeah, and it probably was if you go back and watch the show enough to find it.

Bob

Try watching the episode "Our Town" after consuming this story

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Town_%28The_X-Files%29


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: ahtzib on August 28, 2011, 01:04:52 AM
Are Zadok's "Kanakys" the same as the "Kanakas" on the Alert in Call of Cthulhu?

Wikipedia says: "Kanaka, a word, meaning 'people' or 'person', used by various Polynesian people to refer to themselves."

How generic or specific did Lovecraft intend it to be?

If they were blood relatives or descendants, it might explain their apparent propensity to worship sea monsters.


-MJ

Kanakas is kind of a slur, a catch-all for Pacific natives but deriving from forced labor (the wiki talks about this). I suspect he meant it in a broad sense, and in a way that while not meant as super offensive, probably knowingly had a touch of the offensive to it.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 28, 2011, 12:29:47 PM
On the Pacific Coast of North America in the 1800s "Kanaka" did not carry any negative connotations beyond innate racist notions held by some users of the word. It just meant Hawai'ian. There was a village at Ft. Vancouver called Kanaka Village named after Hawai'ian canoers brought in from the British Sandwich Islands by Hudson Bay Company to navigate rivers in the Columbia region. "Kanaka" also meant various things in NW Coast laguages, or carried certain associations, in Tlingit, I believe, for example (edit: the Tsimshians had a clan modeled on the Tlingit clan Gaanaxteidi called Kanakana). Kanaka Village wasn't really Hawai'ian, a lot interior Athapascans working for the Bay and local natives from the Columbia River Basin, the Dulles, the Williamette and the Puget Sound Salish groups as well as French voyageurs who had taken native wives lived there, and a generation grew up speaking what had been until then the regional trading language/pidgin, the Chinook Jargon. News of "Kanakas" would have reached the eastern seaboard and Lovecraft from the Pacific coast, mainly.

I suspect the author of the wikipedia entry for Kanakas is at pains to explain how it became derogitory in Australia, doesn't really know, and is writing around the subject. It is a racial slur in German as well. It is difficult to take it seriously as a slur, because it is Hawai'ian/Polynesian for "people," which is the usual way ethnonyms are formed, whereas slurs, such as "Lapplanders" which I understand means "stupid people," rely on the language of the slurrers to supply their ingredients. To put it more simply, I was once asked whether it was an insult to use the word "Jew" in English by a foreign person who had been told it was by an American. This was long before South Park or Borat or any of that. Is "Jew" a slur? Of course not. Not unless all users and hearers of the word happen to be anti-Semites, in which case it probably is, for them.

As far as I can tell Kanaka was not derogatory historically, but became so in certain settings because of racist attitudes and class inequalities between Kanaka workers and their taskmasters. By the time Lovecraft wrote Shadow it would've been archaic to use "Kanaka" instead of Sandwich Islander or Fijian or Tongan, but not like Lovecraft's use of "nigger," which was derogatory and intended to be so. At least that's how it seems to me.

Incidentally, there is a strong parallel between the story of Kanaka Village at Ft. Vancouver on the Columbia and Shadow Over Innsmouth. At Kanaka Village a generation arose of very mixed race (miscegenation), of European, Native and Polynesian descent, speaking a language that had formerly served as a pidgin facilitating inter-tribal and mercantile communication called the Chinook Jargon. The Jargon probably began before Russian, Spanish, British and American ships began plying the west coast, probably as a lingua franca a little bit further north, perhaps near Nootka Sound in British Columbia. It was simple enough that white traders began using it and it filled up with words from French and English and various local languages. So far we've got miscegenation plus a new language, which isn't a big feature of Innsmouth but was the plan of Joseph Smith in setting up his Mormon Republic. (His Mormon Republic more or less in the same general region where Aaron Burr hoped to set up his own distinct republic, for which he attempted to seize New Orleans and the entire Louisiana Purchase to add to Mexican territories he hoped to seize with his army, more or less in line with Jefferson's earlier vision of a family of fraternal but separate republics west of the United States in territories that were claimed by France, Spain and Britain. Astor had a different plan for assimilating these areas to the United States, symbolized by his trading post at the mouth of the Columbia just downstream from Ft. Vancouver, called to this day Astoria). Now we come to the religious aspect. Apparently these wild Chinook kids weren't so keen on Christianity, Western civilization, etc etc and pretty much carried on as they liked. The Jargon was also a force to be reckoned with, it spread like wildfire all up and down the coast and even reached up into the Yukon. So you have this dynamic of a growing population of mixed race people who probably didn't give a damn about race forming a new society in contradiction to British and even American values of civilization, and the Bay was more or less to blame for bringing this about, a phenomenon possibly like the autonomous native/European pirate utopias postulated in William S Burroughs' Cities of the Red Night.

They called in the Anglican priests, sent all the rebels off to religious boarding school (=kidnapped) and closed the village down. And yet it changed little, the Jargon kept spreading, the British soon lost their claim to the lower (southern) Columbia region, American attempts at "civilizing" the natives brought mixed results. So the paralell at this point with Innsmouth is the federalis were called in for mopping up operations after blasting Devil Reef, but the insidious contagion didn't end there. Oh, and the early descriptions of Puget Sound natives by Europeans call them bandy-legged, toadlike, and probably the ugliest people on earth, although I see little resemblance to Rosie O'Donnell. There are probably more parallels with different episodes of attacks on long houses and degenerate generations of wizard indians housed therein near Port Ludlow, if one looks hard enough, but perhaps Lovecraft really was making some points about Native and European American relations, history, patterns, alienation, encounters, etc. Which means that we Europeans (or non-Natives anyway) are the Innsmouthians in the story, which is what the protagonist also discovers, which leads to this double whammy at the end if it is read this way. Is this what Robert Price calls hermeneutics?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 29, 2011, 08:46:32 AM
Yeah, and it probably was if you go back and watch the show enough to find it.

Bob

Try watching the episode "Our Town" after consuming this story

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Town_%28The_X-Files%29

You know, I've actually seen that episode before. Personally I think that is more "Rats in the Walls" then it is "Shadow Over Innsmouth", but still in all, a decent episode.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 29, 2011, 10:42:54 AM
After listening to the Innsmouth wrap-up episode, I caved in and ordered The Innsmouth Cycle and Tales Out of Innsmouth from Chaosium. I'm reading Tales right now, and rather enjoying it. Between this and Lumley's Haggopian and Other Stories, I think I just might be coming around to this whole "Cthulhu Mythos" (or "Lovecraft fanfic," to call a spade a shovel) thing.

Special mention has to go to "The Weird Shadow Over Innsmouth" (in Tales) by John S. Glasby, who took fragments of an earlier draft of "The Shadow" and rewrote it. The result is a kind of alternate-universe version of the original story, with some elements seriously downplayed (including, of all things, the Deep Ones themselves!) and others pursued in a different direction. It's really interesting and entertaining.

Another great story from the same collection is "The Old Ones' Signs" by Pierre Comtois, the story of a pious Christian sailor serving on Obed Marsh's Sumatra Queen.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Ruth - CthulhuChick on August 29, 2011, 08:19:35 PM
Finally listened to the wrap-up. Looking forward to the geography book.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 29, 2011, 09:42:15 PM
I'm reading The Innsmouth Cycle now, and Robert M. Price's preface to the story has an interesting thought (bold emphasis mine):

Quote
Lovecraft made no attempt to harmonize the details between his various stories and their depictions of his myth cycle. Or, better, he attempted not to harmonize them. He realized that actual ancient myth cycles abound in contradictions and variants. To lend his own artificial mythology the semblance of reality, he allowed contradictions to stand...

Ironically, this pair of stories ["Whisperer" and AtMoM] marks the beginning of a belated attempt by Lovecraft to knit his stories into a more coherent whole. The links become stronger with each new tale. The space devils from Yuggoth, as we have just seen, make an encore cameo appearance in At the Mountains of Madness. Then the starfish-headed Old Ones are glimpsed by Walter Gilman in one of his bad trips in "The Dreams in the Witch-House" (1932). They are also mentioned as the enemies of the Great Race of Yith in "The Shadow Out of Time" (1934-35). It must be the crinoids again to whom Zadok Allen alludes as "the lost Old Ones" in "The Shadow Over Innsmouth," as we also hear of shoggoths as allies of the deep ones who worship Cthulhu. Finally, the bulge-eyed Innsmouth folk appear again in "The Thing on the Doorstep" (1933), though as bit players.

Putting these fragments together, we would have to guess that the deep ones somehow correspond to the "Cthulhu spawn" of At the Mountains of Madness, even though there they were called "cosmic octopi." They had been enemies of the Old Ones of Antarctica, as were the shoggoths later on, who turned on the Old Ones and destroyed them. Thus it makes some sense that the shoggoths would now be allied with the deep ones of Cthulhu, even though their common enemy has vanished...

What say you, forum-goers? Is he on to something?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: bkd69 on August 30, 2011, 01:35:10 AM
I'm reading The Innsmouth Cycle now, and Robert M. Price's preface to the story has an interesting thought (bold emphasis mine):

Quote
Lovecraft made no attempt to harmonize the details between his various stories and their depictions of his myth cycle. Or, better, he attempted not to harmonize them. He realized that actual ancient myth cycles abound in contradictions and variants. To lend his own artificial mythology the semblance of reality, he allowed contradictions to stand...

Ironically, this pair of stories ["Whisperer" and AtMoM] marks the beginning of a belated attempt by Lovecraft to knit his stories into a more coherent whole. The links become stronger with each new tale. The space devils from Yuggoth, as we have just seen, make an encore cameo appearance in At the Mountains of Madness. Then the starfish-headed Old Ones are glimpsed by Walter Gilman in one of his bad trips in "The Dreams in the Witch-House" (1932). They are also mentioned as the enemies of the Great Race of Yith in "The Shadow Out of Time" (1934-35). It must be the crinoids again to whom Zadok Allen alludes as "the lost Old Ones" in "The Shadow Over Innsmouth," as we also hear of shoggoths as allies of the deep ones who worship Cthulhu. Finally, the bulge-eyed Innsmouth folk appear again in "The Thing on the Doorstep" (1933), though as bit players.

Putting these fragments together, we would have to guess that the deep ones somehow correspond to the "Cthulhu spawn" of At the Mountains of Madness, even though there they were called "cosmic octopi." They had been enemies of the Old Ones of Antarctica, as were the shoggoths later on, who turned on the Old Ones and destroyed them. Thus it makes some sense that the shoggoths would now be allied with the deep ones of Cthulhu, even though their common enemy has vanished...

What say you, forum-goers? Is he on to something?

Given that HPL was never shy about providing liner notes for his work, I rather suspect we've got all the actual answers we'll ever have.

That being said, personally I'm partial to the notion of all these various entities being entirely separate and independent entities and groups, unless specifically indicated otherwise. In other words, Cthulhu stands alone.

On the other hand, is there any evidence that Cthulhu is not, in fact, Dagon?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Ruth - CthulhuChick on August 30, 2011, 06:54:24 AM
\That being said, personally I'm partial to the notion of all these various entities being entirely separate and independent entities and groups, unless specifically indicated otherwise. In other words, Cthulhu stands alone.

On the other hand, is there any evidence that Cthulhu is not, in fact, Dagon?

Their cultists seem to think otherwise. Also Dagon seems to have a consort and to be awake. Still an interesting idea...


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 30, 2011, 06:43:10 PM
I've thought of something that throws a wrench in the "deep ones are Cthulhu-spawn" theory: they can interbreed with humans. Granted, that's damned hard to account for no matter what mythological context you put it in, but it does seem to rule the idea that they originate somewhere else in the cosmos right out.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Mike J. on August 30, 2011, 06:46:13 PM
But what about Wilbur Whately & his brother? They're hybrids.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 31, 2011, 05:21:47 AM
He's onto something. Probably shoggoths grabbed a human the way sharks do a seal pup, some of the undifferentiated shoggoth cells stuck, and presto-magic the poor fellow grew gills. The change wasn't cosmetic, the shoggoth slime-mold DNA insinuated itself and he bred true, so to speak.

Does Dagon equal Cthulhu? I always thought so. Except Dagon is the localized Caananite/Phoenician representation, dimly remembered, while Cthulhu is the ultimate Deep One from outer space, the real deal behind the legend. In the collective unconscious Cthulhu and the archangel Michael are undifferentiated.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 31, 2011, 09:01:45 AM
I'd like to point out that Zadok Allen never says the Deep Ones are allied with shoggoths, only that they are "going to raise" one. To me, that sounds much more like a summoning than a partnership. And typically, anything summoned is the slave of whatever or whoever summons it. There is a reason magical lore talks about summoning circles as protection or containment. So the relavent passage just tells me that the Deep Ones are getting powerful enough to be a real threat, not that they are consolidating power with other mythos critters.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 31, 2011, 09:24:10 AM
Actually, all Zadok ever says on the subject is that them fish devils is bringin' things up out of where they come from into the town. Been doin' it for years, and slackenin' up lately. And when they get ready... y'ever hear tell of a shoggoth?

Doesn't say anything about the relationship between the Deep Ones and the shoggoths. All we know is that they're working together in some way.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 31, 2011, 01:28:58 PM
Good point, Genus. I have this mental picture of one of the Innsmouth cottages given over to shoggoth-raising, probably nappies all over the place, chew-toys, little penguin mobiles... but that's not really spelled out in the story, is it? Just that they're raisin stuff up what we hope the kin put down agin, and random mention of a shoggoth.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Mike J. on August 31, 2011, 06:36:31 PM
It's kinda hard to tell, but I think Zadok means by "slackenin' up," that they're speeding-up. That seems to be the more sinister of the possibilities.

I imagine those houses by the harbor are just filled waist-deep with goo that has random eyes floating in it. Occasionally the eyes will blink or look around and the goo will burp.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on August 31, 2011, 07:03:48 PM
It's kinda hard to tell, but I think Zadok means by "slackenin' up," that they're speeding-up. That seems to be the more sinister of the possibilities.

I've never heard "slacking" or "slackening" used to mean "speeding up." It sounds like they're slowing down, which sounds more sinister to me because it means they're almost done with whatever preparations they're making...


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on September 01, 2011, 06:03:55 AM
I just assumed that the Deep Ones were just using the shoggoths as living tools, be it for warfare or whatever other purpose they have.  I think they probably used them in much the same way the Elder Things did.

Also, I've always considered Cthulhu and Dagon to be separate entities, and also that the Cthulhu spawn and Deep Ones to be separate entities.  I haven't got and particular reference in mind for this, it's just my own perception.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on September 01, 2011, 05:59:01 PM
"Slackening" usually goes back to "reins" as in horses, doesn't it? Or is it also a nautical thing? I guess it could be both, if you ride walruses.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: fubarinpittsburgh on September 02, 2011, 12:46:43 PM
This is my reaction to the Robert M Price interview. Hope you enjoy it-

Fubar talks about The Shadow Over Innsmouth and Robert M Price 

http://cthutube.blogspot.com/2011/09/countdown-to-halloween-day-59-fubar.html


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on September 02, 2011, 05:38:55 PM
This is my reaction to the Robert M Price interview. Hope you enjoy it-

Fubar talks about The Shadow Over Innsmouth and Robert M Price 

http://a20.video2.blip.tv/12180009266612/Channelfubar-FUBARTalksAboutTheShadowOverInnsmouthAndRobertMPrice907.m4v?brs=1505&bri=8.4

Gentle Sir:--

I agree with your interpretation and said as much earlier in this thread. I think Robert M. Price, however much I do admire him, got it exactly backwards. One of the merits of the story is that is is susceptible to multiple levels of interpretation, a true exercise in cross-cultural and interspecific communication.

On the Pope's fish hat: it is generally said it harkens back to the Akkadians and their teacher-god from the stars, Ioannes. The Polish Pope before this current Hitlerjugend German one admitted there were Sumerian and Akkadian symbols in the Bible with a pneuma-/numismatic attraction that informs the Christian faith, especially in its Catholic branch.

On natives versus colonialists: it seems rather obvious the Deep Ones are colonizing the land as a sort of New World, and that they are not interested overmuch in assimilating to local mores. Thus Price's anology to the Zadokites' subversion of Hellenism fails. The only Zadokite in Innsmouth is Zadok Allen.

On Canaan, Phoenicians and Jews: it is my understanding that the polytheistic Canaanites were called Phillistines/Phoenicians, the ones who adopted monotheism were called Hebrews/Jews, but that the tribe remained Canaanite until the Babylonian captivity. Dagon would have been a more localized Syrian deity who bears mention in the Old Testament in connection with the Phoenician/Phillistine branch of the Canaanites, although there is not a good deal of archaeological evidence he was ever adored much outside his home town set back from the coast in what is now Syria, not Lebanon. His name appears on some of the "god lists" but his identification with a Sumerian counterpart is still clouded in some mystery. "Phillistine" is cognate with "Palestinian" but the origin is also obscure, and some have even posited a Greek origin from "Pallas Athena."

Was there a video component to your posting? I didn't see it, but the audio encoding seemed to have been accomplished at an overly high level of quality, where a lower one would have sufficed for the spoken word. Ai! Cthulhu f'tahgn!

http://www.sendspace.com/file/advuyd



Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: fubarinpittsburgh on September 03, 2011, 10:44:31 AM
This is my reaction to the Robert M Price interview. Hope you enjoy it-

Fubar talks about The Shadow Over Innsmouth and Robert M Price 

http://a20.video2.blip.tv/12180009266612/Channelfubar-FUBARTalksAboutTheShadowOverInnsmouthAndRobertMPrice907.m4v?brs=1505&bri=8.4

Gentle Sir:--

I agree with your interpretation and said as much earlier in this thread. I think Robert M. Price, however much I do admire him, got it exactly backwards. One of the merits of the story is that is is susceptible to multiple levels of interpretation, a true exercise in cross-cultural and interspecific communication.

On the Pope's fish hat: it is generally said it harkens back to the Akkadians and their teacher-god from the stars, Ioannes. The Polish Pope before this current Hitlerjugend German one admitted there were Sumerian and Akkadian symbols in the Bible with a pneuma-/numismatic attraction that informs the Christian faith, especially in its Catholic branch.

On natives versus colonialists: it seems rather obvious the Deep Ones are colonizing the land as a sort of New World, and that they are not interested overmuch in assimilating to local mores. Thus Price's anology to the Zadokites' subversion of Hellenism fails. The only Zadokite in Innsmouth is Zadok Allen.

On Canaan, Phoenicians and Jews: it is my understanding that the polytheistic Canaanites were called Phillistines/Phoenicians, the ones who adopted monotheism were called Hebrews/Jews, but that the tribe remained Canaanite until the Babylonian captivity. Dagon would have been a more localized Syrian deity who bears mention in the Old Testament in connection with the Phoenician/Phillistine branch of the Canaanites, although there is not a good deal of archaeological evidence he was ever adored much outside his home town set back from the coast in what is now Syria, not Lebanon. His name appears on some of the "god lists" but his identification with a Sumerian counterpart is still clouded in some mystery. "Phillistine" is cognate with "Palestinian" but the origin is also obscure, and some have even posited a Greek origin from "Pallas Athena."

Was there a video component to your posting? I didn't see it, but the audio encoding seemed to have been accomplished at an overly high level of quality, where a lower one would have sufficed for the spoken word. Ai! Cthulhu f'tahgn!

http://www.sendspace.com/file/advuyd




See, this is why I love this podcast and this forum. I would never have a conversation this deep on Fangoria or Rue Morgue forums.

Here is the link to the video on Youtube if the Blip video is not working for you-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYR6LxXfEt8


The reason I use video over audio is I am trying to reach more young adults. And I have found younger people will watch a video over listening to a audio file 99.9% of the time.

Thank you for your information.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: ahtzib on September 04, 2011, 11:43:03 PM
On natives versus colonialists: it seems rather obvious the Deep Ones are colonizing the land as a sort of New World, and that they are not interested overmuch in assimilating to local mores. Thus Price's anology to the Zadokites' subversion of Hellenism fails. The only Zadokite in Innsmouth is Zadok Allen.

Price's point is actually not bad, IMO.

The most famous revitalization movement study is Wallace's Death and Rebirth of the Seneca about the Handsome Lake Revival amongst the Seneca of the Iroquois, ca. 1799, when they've been brought incredibly low. Wallace studied an number of historical cases, and tries to argue that many religious origins are in revitalization movements. But the Seneca case is his in-depth one. And I think it is quite reminiscent of Innsmouth as Price points out. The Deep Ones are colonists. But the people of Innsmouth aren't Deep Ones - they're Deep One hybrids, in the process of becoming fully Deep Ones. They still live somewhat like New Englanders, they still have churches, and so on. While there are some aspects of this that are purely for the purposes of masquerade, I think it is also a cultural continuation. And certainly in the case of the first generation, the Obed Marsh generation, they were trying to blend the two worlds, and constantly losing ground doing so. Old Man Marsh still wears his finery, his daughters dress to impress on a human scale. They haven't fully acculturated, just as they haven't fully changed and taken to the water. Innsmouth really is a hybrid place, in many ways far more like Newburyport than like Y'ha-nthlei.

Because Innsmouth is always tagged as a racist story, and as being the fear of immigrants, I never really clicked that it reflects and taps into the colonial history of New England, but now I'm thinking very much that Lovecraft may have intended this. He wrote and thought far too much about the Puritans and about European colonization of New England (but not so much about the natives, that were at most an afterthought to him), that I do think this is attempt at working through that. I don't think he had some prototypical idea of revitalization movements, but perhaps through an analogy to the history of New England, he sort of replicated the concept of at least syncretism and acculturation if not revitalization in the Wallace sense, through repetition and reflection.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on September 05, 2011, 04:48:37 PM
ahtzib,

That is a very well-argued post. I would maintain, however, that the Innsmouthians are "on board" and assimilating to Deep One culture willingly, rather than trying to assimilate it into their New England framework, although one assumes there must be some back and forth, some give and take, some flotsam and some jetsam. If I'm correct then they represent Hellenizing Jews, the sort of fellows who put the zodiac on the floor of their teaching houses and did the nekkid wrestling.

Old Man March sporting his 19th century finery about town is a good point, but I'd guess he's firmly in the Deep One camp by this point and is merely keeping up appearances on land as cultural camoflage.

Are you certain Lovecraft didn't think much about the natives? He gives them sort of a prime place in He, even if only as ghosts (or ghost dancers, following up on the Wallace theme).

There is a chance Lovecraft hit here upon the Deep Structure which Peter Levenda (not Noam Chomsky of Massachussets) hints at as informing American life, but going back to native prehistory, in his weird survey trilogy. I remember reading in Miscellaneous Writings something he wrote about an actual colony of Samoans or Fijians living somewhere on the coast in New England. That might have served as inspiration to delve deeper into the idea of cultural decay and displacement, alienation at a visceral biological level.

Christianity itself is certainly based on a revitalization movement, and it's not completely coincidental that some of the communities pre-dating Christianity but fervently interested in opposing Hellenization sought to employ archaic forms of Aramaic and Hebrew including obsolete grammatical forms.

Innsmouth also hints at the idea of underlying "colonizer guilt," a sort of sense of karma, of, "if we did it to them, someone else can do it to us sometime."

I also still think the themes of leading New England families and Prohibition (and bootleggers and drug dealers) play a big part in the story, and some memory or lore about the Phillips ancestor who fought the good fight for the sould of Andover Prep, and lost. If someone like Levenda, who loves to write about trivial connections and coincidences, tackled Innsmouth from that angle, I have no doubt they'd come up with quite a full net. Unfortunately Levenda isn't a Lovecraft afficianado. Or perhaps it's really better that he isn't.

In any case, it's not the only time Lovecraft touched on the idea of cultural decline and the horrors of syncretism, that stuff runs all through his work, from barbarous medieval Latin to shoggoths imitating extinct Great Old Ones at the South Pole and a bunch of other examples anyone can come up with. He also would have known about the mixed but mainly native Christian base communities/villages in Mass and elsewhere in New England in the 1600s, God-fearing Indians replicating in slightly off forms European cultural norms, up to a point.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: ahtzib on September 05, 2011, 10:37:14 PM
Are you certain Lovecraft didn't think much about the natives? He gives them sort of a prime place in He, even if only as ghosts (or ghost dancers, following up on the Wallace theme).

He is one of the rare places he does. For the most part in his stories, they matter little. But more importantly, in his letters, it becomes much more obvious that to HPL, New England's history (and I don't just mean in a written sense) begins with the Puritans. Other than He, he treats North America as terra nullius before European settlement, with the natives quickly brushed aside. Even worse, in cases where he does talk about native American or African civilizations (the US Southwest and Mexico in The Transition of Juan Romero, the Plains in The Mound, Great Zimbabwe), he assigns them to global or pre-human or quasi-human lost civilizations, Lemuria style. In his actual thinking, he doesn't believe this, but he basically doesn't think about such places or times at all, they are of minimal concern to him. And lets not forget he spent his youth writing, and then later destroying, numerous stories of Romans landing in the New World, getting in conflict with locals, but mostly these stories were of the Romans (sort of like what he did with Ireland in The Moon-Bog).

Native Americans are a minimal and shadowy presence to Lovecraft's imagination. He preferred to people his surroundings with transplanted Old World myths, more recent colonial folklore from after the time the Indians have supposedly disappeared, or cosmic fantasies.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on September 06, 2011, 04:30:46 PM
ahtzib:

Lovecraft presents a tableau of "natives" in Call of Cthulhu, and one gets the sense he is really trying to tie them all together into some sort of Turanian substratum who instinctually understand the lines from the fictitious language. Dream-Quest has a very thin fantasy patina overlaying a quest for the "god race" among fictitious "natives" including a barely disguised Inuit presence. Whether Lovecraft is just using them as background to provide definition to his "real people" or is delving into their mythologies, they're still there. It probably means something he placed de Castro, his Jewish correspondent, among the dark hordes of voodoo practitioners leaping to the beat of the tom-toms in Call, but I'm not sure what. I think he's playing around with some basically theosophical notions of race current at the turn of the century, including Aryans, Turanians, Atlanteans, etc., but foregoing the use of the names Blavatsky assigned, or he's received the same sort of notions from secondary or more removed sources.

There's a book by Henrik Rink translated into English under the title Danish Greenland. Its People and Products from ca. 1877 (the date of publication in English in London). Rink was an important official in the Greenland Trade Department and was later more or less governor of Greenland for the Kingdom of Denmark. He begins his book with a retelling of the history, anecdotes, sagas and rumors regarding the Norse colonization in the late 10th century. His book contains a number of tales or rumors that are no longer repeated much. One of the stories is that some Greenlanders renounced Catholicism as ineffective and "went native" cavorting with the presumably newly arrived Thule Inuit (although Dorset eskimo would've been the first in contact with the Norse Greenlanders, probably), taking up heathen ways and one presumes shamanism (which wasn't so alien to the mainly pagan Icelanders who settled Greenland anyway, there's a saga tale about a female "wyrdsinger" early in the new country's history). There is another about papal correspondence and a Danish-English peace treaty which hints English vessels took Icelanders and Greenlanders hostage in a somewhat secret and pre-Columbus bid for the route to China and North American lands, including an attack where the raiders burned the farmsteads to the ground (although the archaeology has never supported that sort of arson at any of the known sites). Neither of these is at first glance totally applicable to Shadow Over Innsmouth, but the way Rink writes, or at least how he was translated, leads me to believe Shadow took some inspiration from these stories of a decaying civilization turning to Inuit heathenism and attacks by the central authorities (English, Portuguese under papal direction), if that inspiration was not taken directly from Rink's book.

I assume Lovecraft was interested in the lost Norse colonies in Greenland and probably took the name Olaus Wormius down for later use while reading up on the various theories at some library. Wormius was Olaf Wormskiold and I believe I saw him mentioned in footnotes of other books about Greenland as an important Danish/Norwegian writer on the subject.

Another story to think about in connection with what Robert Price said is the Festival. I hope I'm not misremembering the title, I'm thinking of the one where the narrator returns home during yuletide to a strange New England village and ends up doing the wave together with all the other villagers down in the cavern amphitheatre where they're performing ancient rites to Dagon or some marine deity of that general sort.

Rink's book is on archive.org under Henry Rink and the title, or search for the file name, cu31924032358388.pdf (or .djvu). If anyone is interested, the stuff that looks and feels like Innsmouth are passages in the first 38 pages.

PS I think Robert M. Price is great and I'm just about to listen to an interview with him from June I somehow overlooked by TenebrousT of The Stench of Truth on blogalkradio. I think the direct download link for the mp3 is:

http://aa3.blogtalkradio.com/a/0/http:~~edge-dl.andomedia.com~800185~download.andomedia.com~Creative~800~800493_1_64.mp3/4/show/1/939/show_1939931.mp3


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: osyrisdiamond on September 07, 2011, 01:22:55 AM
I'd like to point out that Zadok Allen never says the Deep Ones are allied with shoggoths, only that they are "going to raise" one. To me, that sounds much more like a summoning than a partnership. And typically, anything summoned is the slave of whatever or whoever summons it. There is a reason magical lore talks about summoning circles as protection or containment. So the relavent passage just tells me that the Deep Ones are getting powerful enough to be a real threat, not that they are consolidating power with other mythos critters.

Bob

If I may quote from The Case of Charles Dexter Ward, "I say to you againe, doe not call up Any that you can not put downe; by the Which I meane, Any that can in Turne call up somewhat against you, whereby your Powerfullest Devices may not be of use. Ask of the Lesser, lest the Greater shall not wish to Answer, and shall commande more than you." If what we learned about the Shoggoths in The Mountains of Madness is any indication, either the Deep Ones are more subtle with their dealing with them or they have no clue what they're messing with. This said, considering the humans cleared Innsmouth rather effectively, what happened to them? Did the Deep Ones get wise and pull out their penultimate weapon? (Assuming that they are their own ultimate weapon in many ways.)

If so, then their outpost of Innsmouth should have been awaiting them. So, were these Shoggoths, though apparently amiable to land environments, less self-motived than their Antarctic counterparts? Maybe this would explain why the Deep Ones would even want to muck with these things. I doubt, again drawing parallels to their southern counterparts, that Shoggoths would have much dealings with anyone, and certainly not in a subservient capacity. The fact that they are apparently being stored and brought up at least implied less than equality in the relationship. Then again, this could be a skewed perspective by the speaker. Still, what happened to the Innsmouth Shoggoths? (assuming there were indeed Shoggoths) is a damn good question. Damn you, Lovecraft, and your plot holes! (Or Lovecraft was merely writing a previous plot elements into a new mold for the purpose of story...)

Actually, all Zadok ever says on the subject is that them fish devils is bringin' things up out of where they come from into the town. Been doin' it for years, and slackenin' up lately. And when they get ready... y'ever hear tell of a shoggoth?

Doesn't say anything about the relationship between the Deep Ones and the shoggoths. All we know is that they're working together in some way.

slack·en (slkn)
tr. & intr.v. slack·ened, slack·en·ing, slack·ens
1. To make or become slower; slow down: The runners slackened their pace. Air speed slackened.
2. To make or become less tense, taut, or firm; loosen: I slackened the line to let the fish swim. The tension in the board room finally slackened.
3. To make or become less vigorous, intense, or severe; ease: slacken discipline; afraid that morale might slacken.

So yes, it does mean to slow down; and I agree such would very much suggest that a sufficient capacity was being achieved, or at least an end to their supply was drawing near. Though vague, it does seems like the Deep Ones are trying to pull one out of the Elder Thing's playbook... I refer you to my statements above. I have to laugh, as it seems many of the aspects of Lovecraft's writing we love most more seem to be derived from plot holes or otherwise what one might call inconsistency; traits we might otherwise scold other writer for as sloppy work. Again, since in some aspects, that how Lovecraft operated (adjusting previous plot elements to fit the context).


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Mike J. on September 07, 2011, 08:19:11 PM
Would you say he was a ... smooth operator?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: fubarinpittsburgh on September 08, 2011, 02:20:35 PM
Are you certain Lovecraft didn't think much about the natives? He gives them sort of a prime place in He, even if only as ghosts (or ghost dancers, following up on the Wallace theme).



Native Americans are a minimal and shadowy presence to Lovecraft's imagination. He preferred to people his surroundings with transplanted Old World myths, more recent colonial folklore from after the time the Indians have supposedly disappeared, or cosmic fantasies.

To be honest I was nervous when I went into some of Lovecrafts work that mentioned Native Americans. But in the end, the treatment of Native Americans in his work was not nearly as repugnant as the treatment they received in the typical "cow boy" tales of the same era.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on September 08, 2011, 03:03:13 PM
Yeah, but I think that is more a matter of Lovecraft finding them below mention than actually trying to handle them better than other writers. He seems to have a real problem with Indians for some reason. :-\

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: ahtzib on September 08, 2011, 11:29:54 PM

Lovecraft presents a tableau of "natives" in Call of Cthulhu, and one gets the sense he is really trying to tie them all together into some sort of Turanian substratum who instinctually understand the lines from the fictitious language.

Yes, though his artistic "civilized" folk get it too, as well as the insane, with scientists getting it slightly as well. Basically everyone except "sensible, respectable" people.

I read or heard something recently, can't remember what, that suggested that de Castro was not an influence on the Castro of The Call of Cthulhu.

Will chew over the other stuff.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on September 09, 2011, 04:11:53 PM
It's funny, there's an apocryphal story from the Kennedy assassination files (unofficial) about Fidel Castro visiting the Louisiana bayou country. It's completely possible de Castro was not the influence for Castro I'm not very sure of all this myself and haven't read enough of his correspondence to get a good idea of how he felt about Native Americans. I'm leaning toward the Greenland lost Norse colony thing as a source of inspiration for Innsmouth right now, but it's a pet theory and it too shall pass.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Boneworm on September 19, 2011, 09:19:56 PM
Hey, an interesting little tidbit!  I found the source for some of the intro audio from the Innsmouth episodes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQKs1-fwTgU

I'm sure you all remember the Humboldts from back in the early episodes. ;)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: fubarinpittsburgh on September 23, 2011, 10:33:36 AM
Question, and if anyone brought this up already I apologize. Has anyone ever found any link between this story and The Creature From The Black Lagoon films?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on October 10, 2011, 06:01:10 AM
I assume you mean above and beyond the obvious.  But, no, I can't say I was aware of any other links.  But then I didn't know there were any other Creature from the Black Lagoon films other than the black and white original.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on October 10, 2011, 08:47:43 AM
You mean there's ore than just that one? Cool! I somehow doubt that anyone took Lovecraft into account for an inspiration for the Creature. It seems to me like someone just wanted a new monster and thought of Fishman instead of Wolfman. At least that was always how I thought of it. That having been said, I haven't seen the movie in MANY years, so I may very well be forgetting relevant data.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on October 10, 2011, 08:58:35 AM
Yep, there are three films: The Creature From the Black Lagoon, Revenge of the Creature (featuring Clint Eastwood's first screen appearance as "Scientist #2"), and The Creature Walks Among Us.

Revenge is a fine sequel, even without Julia Adams's legs. TCWAU kind of sucks.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: fubarinpittsburgh on October 20, 2011, 08:32:24 AM
Revenge of the Creature was also once on MST3K. And if you are going to watch that film, watch that cut.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Yojimbo on October 21, 2011, 04:40:16 PM
Revenge of the Creature was also once on MST3K. And if you are going to watch that film, watch that cut.

That's the only one I've seen. Clint Eastwood's brief and surprising appearance is still the best part. Richard Agar is such an annoying presence as the lead, and moving the Creature out of the Amazon and into "Sea World" ends up being pretty lame.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on October 21, 2011, 04:44:22 PM
Taken together, Creature From the Black Lagoon and Revenge of the Creature add up to a pretty cool King Kong remake.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on October 24, 2011, 09:09:37 AM
Taken together, Creature From the Black Lagoon and Revenge of the Creature add up to a pretty cool King Kong remake.

Huh, I can see that angle. Now I just need to get the MST3K version, and I'll be good to go.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on October 24, 2011, 01:25:31 PM
It's probably on demonoid. Which remake of King Kong, btw, the de Lauretis one or 9/11?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on November 05, 2011, 07:10:31 PM
I saw these guys on a sort of social network mugging it up for the camera. I don't think they've ever heard of Lovecraft or Innsmouth, but I couldn't resist reposting it here.

(http://i42.tinypic.com/n1areu.jpg)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on November 07, 2011, 08:17:58 AM
I don't know, OldBook, these guys look like they've been around the block a time or two. I'm thinking at least one of them has had sex with SOMETHING native to the sea... :-\

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: HeirophantX on May 22, 2012, 05:10:46 PM
Something I've always wondered about.  What if Robert Olmstead got it wrong?  What if the hybrids knew who and what he was?  He's a Marsh!  He's hybrid royalty!  He's lost grandma was contacting him in his dreams.  I wonder if what he encountered on his first night in Innsmouth was really some sort of unsubtle homecoming/initiatory experience.  It seems pretty insane that hordes of Deep Ones would be mobilized just to wrap up one dude.  If they wanted to murder him why did it take so many people, including priests in their vestments?  They could have just killed him in the street in front of the hotel or if they were concerned with propriety, killed him in the lobby.  I think the whole mobilization was for a great homecoming ceremony for a lost son.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Eric Lofgren on May 22, 2012, 07:08:28 PM
I've wondered about this as well. If wonder if once they discovered him in the town, they realized what his heritage was and were at least trying to keep him at Innsmouth so as not to spread the word of what he would eventually find out, without killing him in the process.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on May 22, 2012, 07:16:03 PM
How would they know though? Joe Sargent and the innkeeper at the Gilman House show no signs of recognition, seeming to regard him as just another unwanted outsider. The closest anyone comes to showing that they guess is Zadok Allen when he remarks in passing that Olmstead "kind o’ got them sharp-readin’ eyes like Obed had."


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: HeirophantX on May 22, 2012, 08:53:34 PM
Who knows how they knew but I think someone must have known.  Sargent and the Gillman clerk don't have to know anything but to do what they're told.  The high-level of the response to Olmstead's visit certainly argues that he was no mere stranger to be disappeared.  Was anything like this ever hinted at by HPL?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Eric Lofgren on May 22, 2012, 11:20:37 PM
Am I misremembering that the Gilman House innkeeper wasn't from Innsmouth? And perhaps Sargent, while just doing his job, realizes just who he has on board his bus on the way to Innsmouth, as he has no problems lying about the fact that the bus is no longer operational when Olmstead wants to go. Of course, it really is all circumstantial when you think about it.   


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Ruth - CthulhuChick on May 22, 2012, 11:33:47 PM
Am I misremembering that the Gilman House innkeeper wasn't from Innsmouth? And perhaps Sargent, while just doing his job, realizes just who he has on board his bus on the way to Innsmouth, as he has no problems lying about the fact that the bus is no longer operational when Olmstead wants to go. Of course, it really is all circumstantial when you think about it.   

The innkeeper was from Innsmouth, though he may not have had the look. It was the clerk who was from outside.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on May 23, 2012, 08:05:48 AM
The innkeeper is certainly an Innsmouther; his paw-like hands are commented on at least once when he is showing Olmsted to his room.

As for HeirophantX's hypothesis, I've never really thought about it, but the more I do, the more it seems to fit. Assuming that everyone in town knows everyone else (particularly when Olmsted comments that there are thousands of Deep Ones coming ashore) is kind of silly. I agree that maybe Gentry was just following orders to keep the new guy in town. After much debate, it may have been decided to get Olmsted in his sleep, thus catching him by surprise and avoiding needles commotion. Of course that backfires spectacularly and the mob forms to find the new guy because the royalty said to. Yeah, I think that really fits pretty neatly.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: T. Kelly Lee on May 23, 2012, 09:26:40 AM
Who knows how they knew but I think someone must have known.  Sargent and the Gillman clerk don't have to know anything but to do what they're told.  The high-level of the response to Olmstead's visit certainly argues that he was no mere stranger to be disappeared.  Was anything like this ever hinted at by HPL?

I have always thought this was the case and that they were under orders to hold Olmstead.  I think certainly he must have been recognized as a Deep One hybrid by someone...Zadok Allen gets pretty close to it.  Otherwise, no need for a flash mob to round him up - they could have just knocked him on the head if they wanted him dead. 


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein on June 03, 2012, 04:07:57 PM
Of course you can assume that these creatures know their kind instinctively and your interpretation makes sense. But probably it `s much simpler: This is just the way things happen in a horror story. HPL had all of these pictures - and they are great - in his mind, so he wrote them into the story. He does that frequently without any regard if it makes sense or not leaving us poor readers to rationalize it.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: T. Kelly Lee on June 04, 2012, 07:44:19 AM
Of course you can assume that these creatures know their kind instinctively and your interpretation makes sense. But probably it `s much simpler: This is just the way things happen in a horror story. HPL had all of these pictures - and they are great - in his mind, so he wrote them into the story. He does that frequently without any regard if it makes sense or not leaving us poor readers to rationalize it.

I don't really think that's the case, here though.  Plenty of other people have dropped in on Innsmouth over the years.  The mill inspector even, well, inspected their mill.  The grocery clerk works there everyday.  Those folks get left alone.  For some reason, almost from the beginning, Olmstead was marked out as a person of interest. 


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on June 04, 2012, 11:55:16 AM
Well, even if you are a xenophobic group of yokels, you still have to have some commerce with the outside community. This is reason enough to make at least an attempt at a veneer of normalcy for the benefit of the outside world. The good people of Innsmouth appear to maintain a bare minimum of the normal trappings of civilization to pass themselves off as harmless to the outside world. Of course, they do it very badly, but since everyone around hates Innsmouth anyway, they have no real need to do any better. they know that most "normal" people will just shrug things off as being queer and backwards, at that impression serves the townspeople's' purpose just fine. So having a mill inspection is necessary for keeping the cover story of the gold coming out of the mill. And having a few outsiders working in town, is useful for spreading the image of Innsmouth as simply a backwards slum. Ruses like these distract people from the real goings on in Innsmouth.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein on June 04, 2012, 02:43:12 PM
I don't really think that's the case, here though.  Plenty of other people have dropped in on Innsmouth over the years.  The mill inspector even, well, inspected their mill.  The grocery clerk works there everyday.  Those folks get left alone.  For some reason, almost from the beginning, Olmstead was marked out as a person of interest. 


Of course they are left alone. Because they are not the protagonsists of that story. Other people are rumored to have disappeared in Inssmouth i I remember that right. And at least in case of the clerk (even fishpeople need their groceries!) for their narrative function.  Of course Bob `s remarks are also right. Again, your assumption is the most appropriate if you apply everyday logic. Initially I thought that, too but my point here is: How would you approach a person you have recognized as a lost member of your secret tribe/cult and you intend to suck into your camp? A person by the way who obviously shows some interest you could easily play on? Displaying all kinds of hideousness, trying to sneak into his room at night? And when he finally decides to beat it summon your monster friends from the sea? Doesn `t seem like a very promising plan to me.
To me this is clearly horror logic.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Vulpine on June 04, 2012, 02:43:23 PM
Maybe Deep One hybrids tickle the pineal gland of other hybrids, but it's subtle.  Takes a little while to figure out.  Sargent calls the Gilman House from Arkham and they work out a plan to strand Olmstead and snag him.  But like many surprise parties, it goes horribly awry.  

The road to Y'ha-nthlei is paved with good Deep One intentions.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on June 05, 2012, 08:34:46 AM
I figure Olmstead just showed up on the wrong night and that the Deep Ones had some business on land that he happened to stumble into. Millions of Deep Ones coming up just for him is a bit far fetched, but if he stumbled onto Innsmouth just when they were conducting some eldritch rights, them maybe a convenient sacrifice would make things that much better for them. Though I still like the new theory of induction to the cult better now that I have heard it.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: T. Kelly Lee on June 05, 2012, 11:13:42 AM
It seems that the local leadership simply ordered the heavies to grab Olmstead and bring him in.  We don't see that action, but there is clearly conspiracy afoot.  First the bus doesn't work, he's forced to stay, and there's a ton of guys there to round him up.  When this doesn't work, Marsh himself comes out to lead the posse.  This doesn't make sense if they wanted him dead.  They could have simply killed him when he first set foot into the hotel that night after he was told the bus was broken.  It's clear they wanted to grab him unharmed, not just walk in and kill him.  Also, Olmstead is clear at the end that's he's going back there along with his cousin.  So if he's planning to live with these guys, even he has come to the conclusion that they meant him no harm.  I think that's the real twist to the story.  If he'd stuck around he might have been rough handled, but I have a feeling he would have been taken directly to old man Marsh.  

It really does make sense to have a large posse chase Olmstead if he is 1) meant not to get away and 2) meant not to be harmed.  Remember, from the point he steps into the hotel after being told the bus is broken, anyone could have just jumped on him with a knife or shot him dead.  It seems clear they were waiting for a time when they could abduct him without hurting him.  


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Konrad Hartmann on June 05, 2012, 10:10:55 PM
I don't really think that's the case, here though.  Plenty of other people have dropped in on Innsmouth over the years.  The mill inspector even, well, inspected their mill.  The grocery clerk works there everyday.  Those folks get left alone.  For some reason, almost from the beginning, Olmstead was marked out as a person of interest.  

But would everything have gone down if Olmstead had not gotten Zadok liquored up and talking? He was witnessed listening to Zadok, who was witnessed revealing the town's secrets.

On a different topic, Shadow is often discussed as an example of HPL's fear of race-mixing, and I wouldn't argue against that being the case. However, since this was written, what, six years after the Scopes monkey trial and since the idea of evolution continues to horrify some people, do you think this fear is reflected in the story? I suspect this has been discussed before. Many people become indignant at the idea of a genetic linkage between humans and other primates, let alone the aquatic origin of pre-mammalian species.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: T. Kelly Lee on June 06, 2012, 09:33:23 AM
1.  On the Zadok thing - he is revealed by another outsider to be a guy that knows the scoop around town.  So clearly, he's gotten too chatty with other people in the past, otherwise characters wouldn't know that Zadok was a good source of information.  No one has any idea what Zadok and Olmstead are talking about - from outside appearances they're just sitting on the seawall boozing. 

2.  Evolution, I think, was a BIG part of HPL's thought processes.  However, I think he would have found it more amusing - as a part of his "cosmic joke" philosophy - to not that we humans are just more upright apes.  Clearly even that is a source of horror among some of his characters.  But HPL is acknowledging evolution in this story.  To paraphrase Zadok: we all come from the sea and it only takes a little change to allow us to go back.  Shockingly, how right HPL was!! 

Not to start talking religion here, but a recent poll indicates that a HUGE number of Americans still reject evolution - so that means the idea that humans are descended from "lesser" animals and not a special creation is still a very loathsome idea in this country. 


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on June 06, 2012, 10:13:51 AM
1.  On the Zadok thing - he is revealed by another outsider to be a guy that knows the scoop around town.  So clearly, he's gotten too chatty with other people in the past, otherwise characters wouldn't know that Zadok was a good source of information.  No one has any idea what Zadok and Olmstead are talking about - from outside appearances they're just sitting on the seawall boozing. 

I think the main idea here is that Zadok was seen as the "crazy towny" by anyone not in the know, like the clerk. The way I always viewed it was that that cleerk sends Olmstead to Zadok to get a good bit of local color with no real idea what he is getting Olmstead into. The clerk is as ignorant of Zadok's true affiliations as anyone who never took the old drunk seriously would be. Honestly, living in Innsmouth is wierd enough without actually believeing what Zadok is always spouting about monsters. So I certainly see Zadok as more of an object of ridicule than as a serious source of information.

Pretty much everyone knows a guy or gal like Zadok Allan in thier life. Now imagine taking the guy seriously for once, and see what kind of wiredness that would mean for you if you did. Take that one step further and imagine the monsters that guy is talking about actually WERE listening to him when he started spouting his crap to outsiders and finding out that he actually spilled the beans for once to someone who might actually believe him and take action based on the things he said. I think the narative at this point in the story holds together pretty well from a logical standpoint.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Konrad Hartmann on June 10, 2012, 04:52:04 PM
1.  On the Zadok thing - he is revealed by another outsider to be a guy that knows the scoop around town.  So clearly, he's gotten too chatty with other people in the past, otherwise characters wouldn't know that Zadok was a good source of information.  No one has any idea what Zadok and Olmstead are talking about - from outside appearances they're just sitting on the seawall boozing. 

2.  Evolution, I think, was a BIG part of HPL's thought processes.  However, I think he would have found it more amusing - as a part of his "cosmic joke" philosophy - to not that we humans are just more upright apes.  Clearly even that is a source of horror among some of his characters.  But HPL is acknowledging evolution in this story.  To paraphrase Zadok: we all come from the sea and it only takes a little change to allow us to go back.  Shockingly, how right HPL was!! 

Not to start talking religion here, but a recent poll indicates that a HUGE number of Americans still reject evolution - so that means the idea that humans are descended from "lesser" animals and not a special creation is still a very loathsome idea in this country. 

1. But Zadok is screaming by the end of his rant. I always pictured Deep Ones lurking out in the surf with one sound organ sticking out of the water, eavesdropping.

2. The recent Gallup poll indicates that 46% of Americans believe "God created humans in present form within last 10,000 years." That shows not just a disbelief in evolution but also a disbelief in human prehistory (e.g., the flutes and carvings found in Hohle Fels).


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on June 11, 2012, 08:31:13 AM
Well, Konrad Hartmann, as this is a Monday morning, and I had a really crappy night, and I can't stand my job, it is really, REALLY hard for me not to comment on the second point you made. But as I don't want to let me aggravation get the better of me and thus post a terribly scathing comment about religion/archeology/faith/common sense, I will simply say, "good post".

Bob (Discretion sucks...)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: T. Kelly Lee on June 11, 2012, 08:51:59 AM
2. The recent Gallup poll indicates that 46% of Americans believe "God created humans in present form within last 10,000 years." That shows not just a disbelief in evolution but also a disbelief in human prehistory (e.g., the flutes and carvings found in Hohle Fels).

I think it comes down, simply, to the American notion that knowledge is subject to the democratic process.  We're used to voting on things in this country and, thus, we like to think that we can legislate reality as well.  "10 Million Chevrolet Owners Can't Be Wrong!"  Etc.  Sure they can.  At the time HPL was writing belief in evolution would have marked you out as a pretty serious dissenter and a member of a fairly tight club within the intelligentsia.  And for a lot of people now, as then, the notion that humans are not a special creation is scary stuff.  A movie like Prometheus shows that we still prefer the idea of being created by aliens to being evolved from slime. 

I think that's where the "cosmic joke" of HPL's fictional universe plays best.  Belief is a powerful psychological tool, but it's not more powerful than reality - ever.  And the great common theme of HPL's writing is the story of characters trying to hold onto their comfortable worldviews in the face of an onslaught of cold reality.  A reality which often drives them mad.  As Tillich stated, faith is the will to believe against the odds of unbelief.  HPL is kicking back and saying look, suckers, if you knew what I know it'd drive you crazy.  I also think that's why the religious among us like to build sacred space around even the discussion of their faith...it's even impolite to talk about it in our culture.  Bob Price, the great Lovecraftian, is a Biblical scholar by day and he often points out that interested non-believers typically have a better knowledge of the Bible than the faithful.  I think we see these same concerns reflected in HPL's fiction even of almost a century ago!  It's the cynics like Henry Armitage that win the day.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Jape on June 11, 2012, 06:23:06 PM
I'm amazed I never actually tried to break down the logic of the mob chasing him. The idea they are trying to grab a 'lost prince' of the Deep Ones for a family reunion before he leaves is cool and does have a logical base to it. Also my image of Innsmouth is narrow streets and tall, leaning town houses with eyes human and not peering out from behind shutters. I always assumed Zadok's ramblings were indeed overheard.
Quote
I think that's where the "cosmic joke" of HPL's fictional universe plays best.  Belief is a powerful psychological tool, but it's not more powerful than reality - ever.

Indeed, the reason I've always loathed Derleth's 'moralisation' of the Mythos. I'm grateful for Arkham House but the idea of good and evil in Lovecraftian fiction is anathema to me. Big bad Dracula is comforting as it implies there must be an intervening good to counter balance the evil monster, a cold universe full of entities that only appear godlike to us as we would to a worm simply suggests infinite chaos and uncaring death. I don't read horror to be consoled.

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I think it comes down, simply, to the American notion that knowledge is subject to the democratic process.

An interesting notion but speaking as an Englishman I don't think its quite that particular. Human beings like symbols of stability. As the Queen's Diamond Jubilee has proven over here. The handful of republicans (myself included) were ridiculed for pointing out logical ideas of government we're very happy for 90+% of the world to use (indeed I find it unlikely we'd be any keener on a new monarchy being established in say, Brazil, than Americans would be). However its our symbol so its good. Notably a big criticism of British republicanism is that we're "no fun" which I think gets to the core, whether its nationalism or paternalism or simply apathy, the present system is comforting and to change could be hard and scary.

Call it the human condition if you like, but basically humans have the logical maturity to recognise entropy and mortality but not the emotional maturity to deal with it, and the cosmic insignificance that comes with. That's the rich vein Lovecraft mines oh so well.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: T. Kelly Lee on June 12, 2012, 08:38:33 AM
I really think I have to stick with the Americanized notion of knowledge being democritizable.  I travel a good deal in Europe and have lived in the UK, myself - I plan to go back in a few years for a longer stint.  I have a lot of friends over there, most of them liberals and republicans.  (And they are fun, btw.)  But a characteristic of British culture I have noticed that we lack in the USA is that most Brits (and greater Europeans, for that matter) are willing to accept an authoritarian epistemology.  In short, if scientific consensus says it - it must be true.  We see this in a wide range of issues, from the debate over global warming to the belief in evolution.  And this is NOT a recent thing - de Tocqueville noticed this when writing Democracy in America.  He explicitly stated his fear that Americans had made a fetish out of democracy - that once the "majority had spoken" then dissenters were expected to just shut up and go along.  Even if the dissenters were actually right. 

We see this all the time when policy issues get politicized in the states - as I stated above it's considered impolite in the US to even discuss, say, matters of religion and politics out of fear of committing offense.  The majority has spoken, so shut up about it.  Whereas within fifteen minutes of sitting down at the pub in the UK you can get into a great discussion with almost anyone over their thoughts on politics, religion, moral philosophy.  (I only avoid talking football, because, frankly it's boring as all hell and I just don't care.)  But in this country the very discussion of belief is seen by a large number of people as offensive.  For instance, I work in a political office but we're banned from openly talking politics! 

And I think you see this reflected in HPL's writings.  Lovecraft was ahead of his time and he had glimpses into future revelation regarding the potential for science to deconstruct some of our most basic institutions.  Therefor the Big Revelation of a lot of his stories is meant to turn the comfortable opinions of the majority right on their heads!  That's why I agree that the moralizing of the Mythos is just no good.  Derleth needed to stop writing and read a little - HPL was a Nietzschean.  He embraced the transvaluation of morality and that is explicit in his writing.  Azathoth doesn't give a damn about good or evil - Azathoth just IS.  There's no point to him.  HPL would find that funny - whereas it kicks the bottom out of Derleth's whole world. 


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Konrad Hartmann on June 16, 2012, 02:57:14 PM
There also tends to be a great deal of identity, polarization, and hostility involved in religion and politics in the States. I've met Democrats, Republicans, atheists, and Christians who all assume that anyone not of their own position is a complete idiot. There often isn't a lot of room for discussion because everyone's so tied up in their own thing. And if someone likes you, they may become horrified to learn that you don't agree with them on everything.

Regarding evolution, yeah, it's a funny thing but people often seem to feel that choosing not to believe in something suffices to make it go away. Also, I still hear people use the phrase, "They still haven't found the missing link." Or I hear arguments that there aren't enough transitional species to establish evolution. There's an attitude that, if you don't agree with something, you can dismantle it just by being really ignorant of it.

I know the idea of humans evolving from blue-green algae repulses many people, but I personally find the concept far more beautiful and inspiring than, "Yeah, well, God just made you this way. Sorry about the whole excretory system thing, but there was really no other way for an infinitely powerful being to make it."

(And yes, I do realize that I fulfilled my own criticism in the first paragraph.)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein on June 16, 2012, 04:53:15 PM
Who likes to be told that he is the retarded offspring of five monkeys having butt sex with a frog-squirrel? No one does!
This creationist movement has reached us just lately und I was quite bewildered when some two years ago a german polititian proposed to teach the Genesis in biology classes at school. Luckily she faded to obscurity. There seems to be some religuluous roll-back attempts.
That Gallup poll you mentioned was much discussed around here, too. Most people made fun of those „unenlightened creationists“ and so on, but the funny thing I observed is that many of them just believe in Evolution as others believe in Creation. Simply reproducing what their teacher, their dad, the TV said, without any factual knowledge. So the believe in Evolution is not really progress. Just like one superstition replaced by an other other one. The fact that this new „superstition“ is most likely closer to the the truth than it `s predecessor does not reconcile me at all.


I really think I have to stick with the Americanized notion of knowledge being democritizable.   

Around these parts it `s almost exactly the opposite. People believe anything a stated authority tells them, an authority being anyone presented as such by a serious looking news anchor. No matter if the guy is telling the most stupid rubbish and the most obvious reasons prove him wrong, as long as he wears a decent suit and some other suit-wearer adresses him as an expert everything is fine. "Even if the dissenters were actually right." It `s like a madhouse at times.
What I `m trying to say is: Don `t feel bad about that American peculiarity, our equivalent can be just as annoying.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Konrad Hartmann on June 18, 2012, 10:25:53 PM
When discussing science, I try not to say that I "believe" in anything. I may say that some things are likely to be the case by virtue of overwhelming evidence, or that a particular theory is strongly supported by data. I would say that evolution seems to be the most effective means of explaining how things happen. But, sure, we have to be careful of rejecting new knowledge based on old beliefs. 10 or 20 years ago, arguments for a pre-Clovis American culture were laughed at, as was the notion of H. sapiens interbreeding with Neanderthals.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Inner Prop on June 19, 2012, 07:08:00 AM
I just listened to the story again at Voices in the Dark (http://voicesinthedark.com/content.php?iContent=92).  Cracking good story that.

I too assumed that the mob was after him because they knew what he was.  I also thought that they wanted to keep him there to help in his transformation.  I don't know that the transformation is a given thing, I think it needs to be nourished and encouraged.  Or mabye they knew even more, they knew that if they left him to start changing on his own then he would kill himself.

I agree that there are non-fishy folks in the town that don't get bothered because they are non-fishy and don't cause trouble.  Had the grocery boy actually tried to join a church in town he would probably been turned away.  If he persisted then he would have been dealt with harshly.

It seemed that the fishy folks accepted sacrifices, but they didn't take them.  I don't think we ever hear of them abducting anyone.  They take those that were sacrificed to them on the islands, but they didn't even ask for them.  The people struck up that bargain from their side, right?

Interestingly, the people of the islands worshiped the fishy folk as gods, and the fishys worshiped Dagon, Hastur and Cthulhu as gods.

Do you think that the virgins that the islanders sacrificed were then "re-gifted" as it were?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: HeirophantX on June 19, 2012, 07:28:33 PM
"re-gifting"  Noyce!

 


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Newton Applefig on June 19, 2012, 08:10:06 PM
They just got together for fish flash mob, Obed school.  A House party R'lyeh coast style!

Just remember to be pouring out some Clamato for your anchovies that didn't mutate it, Iä-o!

...

...

This is probably a really bad sign.





Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on June 20, 2012, 10:32:08 AM
Wow, are they really real, or his the picture been photoshopped?

I was listening to the DART adaptation of The Shadow Over Innsmouth the other day, and I was wondering if HPLHS will do a film version one day.  Seems to be it would take quite a lot of doing.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on June 20, 2012, 02:51:54 PM
Wow, are they really real, or his the picture been photoshopped?

I was listening to the DART adaptation of The Shadow Over Innsmouth the other day, and I was wondering if HPLHS will do a film version one day.  Seems to be it would take quite a lot of doing.

They're real, and they're fishermen. They have names, and vessels.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on June 20, 2012, 02:56:01 PM
Flash-mobs were first suggested by Jean Shepherd on WOR radio in Newark in 1965. Just sayin.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on June 20, 2012, 05:14:34 PM
Wow, are they really real, or his the picture been photoshopped?

I was listening to the DART adaptation of The Shadow Over Innsmouth the other day, and I was wondering if HPLHS will do a film version one day.  Seems to be it would take quite a lot of doing.

They're real, and they're fishermen. They have names, and vessels.

Oh, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic with my question, and I didn't mean to be nasty.  My apologies if it came out that way.

Trust me, if you knew what I looked like, I think you'd have some very serious questions about my own genetic lineage.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: T. Kelly Lee on June 21, 2012, 10:06:20 AM
Trust me, if you knew what I looked like, I think you'd have some very serious questions about my own genetic lineage.

Oh, yeah.  I could ABSOLUTELY be Arthur Jermyn, no worries. My tailor assures me I have the strangest proportions he's ever seen. 


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: T. Kelly Lee on June 21, 2012, 10:09:38 AM
10 or 20 years ago, arguments for a pre-Clovis American culture were laughed at, as was the notion of H. sapiens interbreeding with Neanderthals.

Interesting you mention that - there's some AMAZING work going on in Maryland right now that indicates we have a VERY early human incursion into the New World.  The archaeologists behind it are trying to argue an Atlantic arctic crossing, but I don't buy that.  But the artifacts being discovered look like some stuff found in cetral Texas in the 50's that was totally dismissed as being ancient back in the day. 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if one day someone turns up a Cro-magnon bone somewhere along the Atlantic coast. 


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on June 21, 2012, 01:04:09 PM
Of course there were multiple paths to the New World at different times and places by different people. I don't have a problem with the interpretation of the find T. Kelly Lee mentions which has it that Stone Age (Upper Palaeolithic?) peoples skirted the edge of an ice sheet from about where France is all the way to Virginia. There is an explanation for the lack of archaeological evidence in the Aleutians and Alaska coinciding with the Inuit crossings and other earlier crossings as well which involves the idea that the cultures exploiting the resources in the area at that time pretty much followed the edge of the ice, where the meat was, as the ice margin moved all over the place. Cultures specifically adapted to that sort of hunting, whales and seals mainly I guess, could be expected on the Atlantic side as well during colder periods. The earliest identified DNA in Greenland seems to indicate a sort of palaeo-Siberian type individual, but that doesn't exclude incursions from Europe which haven't been found yet, although it might have been easier for Europeans to get to Virginia than Greenland during periods of heavy sea-ice.

It is interesting that France and Spain seem to be some sort of nexus, where Neanderthals and Homos lived close and whence some early Homos might have set out eventually reaching Virginia. On the other side of the world you find great human genetic diversity in Papua New Guinea and Borneo, and Papua/Irian Jaya also has some sort of higher frequency of Denisovan genes, which is the new "other" advanced human known from a single finger-bone joint found in Denisova cave I guess somewhere near the Altai mountains in Siberia. The "hobbit" people called Homo florensis for now even though we're not quite sure thay aren't Homo sapiens are also right there on the coast of Papua basically. So there you have Neanderthal, Homo and Denisovan genes in the populations and possibly a fourth "man" lurking in the background as the hobbit. Then you have "pygmies" separated by vast distances in Borneo and Central West Africa, presumably formerly inhabiting much larger territories and marginalized in early times.

Returning to New England, the Greenlandic sagas about the voyages to North America, probably Newfoundland but perhaps also as far south as Massachusetts, contain descriptions of very Eskimo-like natives there. Since that time the "Dorset" cultures in the Canadian Arctic have also been displaced and assimilated by the Inuit invasion. After Colombus the natives on the Atlantic coast were more Native American-type cultures than Eskimo. Did things change that swiftly? I think the story might be that the Atlantic coast of North America is subject to giant tidal waves at times which wreak destruction and leave small pockets of people alive at higher elevations, and the emptied territory is rapidly reoccupied by outside groups from the west. There are also all those tales of "grey-eyed Welsh-speaking Indians" and some interesting isolated groups up in the hills in Kentucky and Tennessee. There was almost certainly at least several African colonizations of North America before Columbus, and almost certainly parts of South America as well.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on June 21, 2012, 01:07:36 PM

Oh, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic with my question, and I didn't mean to be nasty.  My apologies if it came out that way.

Trust me, if you knew what I looked like, I think you'd have some very serious questions about my own genetic lineage.

No worries, Bulby, I didn't take it as sarcastic or nasty. They are real people, they're fishermen from Greenland, and they're posing, their other pictures make them seem rather normal and not at all frog-like. I debated going back and looking them up and providing their names, just to prove they are real. I decided it wasn't worth it, no one cares, and they probably don't need that kind of publicity, they just wanna fish and sell their catch and not be bothered by the man, presumably.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on June 21, 2012, 02:23:04 PM
It certainly shows how diverse we are as a species.

Often in science fiction, when a non-human species is shown, one individual will look quite similar to another.  Take Star Trek, as an easy example.  The Klingons all have the long hair, the ridged foreheads and the dark skin.  Same for Vulcans, they all have the same - or similar - hair.  EDITED TO INCLUDE:  Thinking about it, Star Trek Voyager had a black Vulcan, and I think their skin tone did vary throughout the history of Star Trek.

I don't know, perhaps they're trying to make a point that everybody is different, in spite of outside appearances.  I seem to remember that there was once this rather racist viewpoint regarding Chinese people, that supposedly - they all look the same.  This is bollocks, of course, but I remember that being a sentiment - though I was still young when that was the case.  Not sure what point I'm trying to make actually - except I suppose to say that the Chinese, or any other group of people, are just one variation on a much larger overall species which covers the whole planet.  You can even see some variation even within one family.

It's strange to think that although most people think of humankind as having descended from primates, really we all descended from the sea.  Come to think of it, I suppose it isn't that strange at all.  I suppose that you could argue that every creature on Earth is related to every other creature on Earth.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on June 21, 2012, 02:25:40 PM
I'd like to point out real quick that those fishermen in the photo are making funny faces for the camera. That's not really what they look like, they're just stretching their bottom lips up over their noses.

Wasn't sure if everyone caught that.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bulbatron on June 21, 2012, 02:28:07 PM
I must admit, I didn't realise that at all.  Feel like a bit of a tit, now.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Inner Prop on June 22, 2012, 07:21:13 AM
I must admit, I didn't realise that at all.  Feel like a bit of a tit, now.
;Hmm, I feel like a bit of a tit or two myself.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on June 22, 2012, 10:18:22 AM
Yeah, they're "pulling faces" or "mugging" for the camera, depending on your favourite brand of English. I seem to remember they have very Danish sounding names. "Skygge pa Inuismuit"...


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Eric Lofgren on June 22, 2012, 12:14:13 PM
They look like Inuit, or should I say the cursed Esqumaux!!! If you have false teeth (upper and lower probably) and take them out you can do what they are doing. The distance you lower jaw can travel becomes quite a bit when you have no teeth obstructing it's motion. Please note that I have all my original teeth :D   


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Konrad Hartmann on June 24, 2012, 01:13:24 AM
Interesting you mention that - there's some AMAZING work going on in Maryland right now that indicates we have a VERY early human incursion into the New World.  The archaeologists behind it are trying to argue an Atlantic arctic crossing, but I don't buy that.  But the artifacts being discovered look like some stuff found in central Texas in the 50's that was totally dismissed as being ancient back in the day.  

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if one day someone turns up a Cro-magnon bone somewhere along the Atlantic coast.  

You're talking about the Solutrean hypothesis, right? From my limited knowledge, yeah, the idea of an Atlantic crossing seems unlikely. But considering how often anthropology gets turned on its head by new findings, I'm willing to at least consider the possibility. There doesn't seem to be any genetic evidence of it, but maybe all that means is that they died out? Is it possible that these artifacts traveling through trade? Or that this tool design just happens to be what multiple cultures happened to find most efficient? I wonder if opponents of pre-Clovis theory are using the weaknesses of the Solutrean hypothesis as a red herring.

Whether or not the Paleoamericans came from Europe, the existence of pre-Clovis people seems pretty well supported.
Here is a 13,000 (sorry, I first wrote 30,000) year old mammoth carving: http://news.discovery.com/history/earliest-american-art-mammoth-110622.html (http://news.discovery.com/history/earliest-american-art-mammoth-110622.html)

And here is an interesting article about the Maryland research:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/radical-theory-of-first-americans-places-stone-age-europeans-in-delmarva-20000-years-ago/2012/02/28/gIQA4mriiR_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/radical-theory-of-first-americans-places-stone-age-europeans-in-delmarva-20000-years-ago/2012/02/28/gIQA4mriiR_story.html)
This is very interesting, but it seems like the lack of DNA evidence is a major drawback to the Solutrean hypothesis. Or is it feasible that this genetic population died out completely in the Americas? While the trans-Atlantic crossing seems unlikely, maybe we should keep in mind how early Australia was populated.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Konrad Hartmann on June 24, 2012, 01:16:47 AM
There was almost certainly at least several African colonizations of North America before Columbus, and almost certainly parts of South America as well.

Do you have more information about this?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein on June 24, 2012, 04:35:22 PM
Since old book seems to be absent, I dare surmising that he refers to the legend of Abu Bakr. The Aegyptian historian Al Umari has a halve page long, third hand record about an anonymous king of Mali (later associated with the alleged Ab? Bakr, whose very existence is unproven) who provided a fleet to sail out into the Atlantic ocean and never returned.
Evidence for that story there is none and the oral tradition in the respective region is highly unclear.
Around these few sentences however cluster a lot of wild theories.
Some muslims want to prove that this guy introduced Islam to the Americas and the afrocentric movement just whishful think about a widespread African colonization of America.
The only other hint to that I am aware of are some early Conquistadores  talking about „negros“ in the Carbics.

Returning to New England, the Greenlandic sagas about the voyages to North America, probably Newfoundland but perhaps also as far south as Massachusetts, contain descriptions of very Eskimo-like natives there. Since that time the "Dorset" cultures in the Canadian Arctic have also been displaced and assimilated by the Inuit invasion. After Colombus the natives on the Atlantic coast were more Native American-type cultures than Eskimo. Did things change that swiftly?

My guess here is that most probably Icelandic oral tradition got some names and faces confused. Remember the Sögur we read today are handed down to us by Icelanders some 200-3oo years later and the original Viking travellers were no ethnologists who referred to all peoples they met in Greenland or wherever in America with the same unfriendly term „Skraelingar“. On the one hand we have stunning observations in these reports which which surely are no inventions and on the other hand there are merely fantastic tales. Drawing ethnographic conclusions from these tales would in my opinion overestimate their credibility.

There are also all those tales of "grey-eyed Welsh-speaking Indians" and some interesting isolated groups up in the hills in Kentucky and Tennessee. 

Fascinating topic but please not Prince Madoc and the Mandan Tribe again! 
I `m aware there `s a variety of such  reports by frontiersmen, travellers, explorers and the like, dating back to late 15hundrets and I don `t simply dismiss them as „miraculous tales from the New World“ but why have the conclusions always to be that fantastic: Medieval Welsh princes, Viking settlements in the very heart of the American continent?
I would more readily befriend with the notion of early Post-Columbian settlers/missionaries leaving their traces in native population and their culture. The Christian-Indian syncretisms mentioned in these reports also point rather into that direction.
On the other hand, the Vikings made no secret of their discoveries and the existence  of land west of Greenland was a known fact in medieval Europe, although nobody seemed to really care. There `s rumour about a Danish expedition to Canada in the 1470ies and Greenlanders occasionally made the passage. Moreover, european whale hunters and pirates were active in the northern Atlantic these days, even pillaging the Greenlandic coast. So there might have been a few individuals travelling there, but no significant settlements.


Or that this tool design just happens to be what multiple cultures happened to find most efficient?
That `s what I thought of the Solutréen Hypothesis when it was first suggestet about 15 years ago. Admittetly I`m not familiar with the technology from that specific period but as a trained stone mason and having worked on European Neolithic sites and dealt with the respective experimental archeologist scene I kow about the conduct of lithic material when you craft on it. So I tend to this more nearby conclusion :different people working with similar material might independently develop similar techniques.
Moreover, the end of the Solutréen period predates Clovis by five or six millenia.
But I seem to be a bit outdated here. That Maryland research is all new to me and I looked over the article only briefly but if the dating is correct, the time gap between Solutréen and Clovis would be closed.
However those new (or newly evaluated in the case of Texas) findings you and T. Kelly Lee are talking about might shine a new light on the evolution of the Clovis tools. The dating of Buttermilk might be weakly founded but stratigraphigally it is defo Pre-Clovis and the design is said to seem like a precursor of Clovis.
 


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on June 25, 2012, 08:44:31 AM
Trust me, if you knew what I looked like, I think you'd have some very serious questions about my own genetic lineage.

Oh, yeah.  I could ABSOLUTELY be Arthur Jermyn, no worries. My tailor assures me I have the strangest proportions he's ever seen. 

You have a tailor? My aren't we the rich man-about-town! I think I need to get a cushy government position now. ;)

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Konrad Hartmann on June 25, 2012, 09:00:19 PM
their culture. The Christian-Indian syncretisms mentioned in these reports also point rather into that direction.
On the other hand, the Vikings made no secret of their discoveries and the existence  of land west of Greenland was a known fact in medieval Europe, although nobody seemed to really care. There `s rumour about a Danish expedition to Canada in the 1470ies and Greenlanders occasionally made the passage. Moreover, european whale hunters and pirates were active in the northern Atlantic these days, even pillaging the Greenlandic coast. So there might have been a few individuals travelling there, but no significant settlements.


Or that this tool design just happens to be what multiple cultures happened to find most efficient?
That `s what I thought of the Solutréen Hypothesis when it was first suggestet about 15 years ago. Admittetly I`m not familiar with the technology from that specific period but as a trained stone mason and having worked on European Neolithic sites and dealt with the respective experimental archeologist scene I kow about the conduct of lithic material when you craft on it. So I tend to this more nearby conclusion :different people working with similar material might independently develop similar techniques.
Moreover, the end of the Solutréen period predates Clovis by five or six millenia.
But I seem to be a bit outdated here. That Maryland research is all new to me and I looked over the article only briefly but if the dating is correct, the time gap between Solutréen and Clovis would be closed.
However those new (or newly evaluated in the case of Texas) findings you and T. Kelly Lee are talking about might shine a new light on the evolution of the Clovis tools. The dating of Buttermilk might be weakly founded but stratigraphigally it is defo Pre-Clovis and the design is said to seem like a precursor of Clovis.
 

Pillaging the coast of Viking-era Greenland had to be one of the crappiest pirate gigs in history. "Argh, we've come to steal your sheep-urine saturated floorboards. And your emaciated cow. And-and-give us the rocks from your wall!" Maybe it was entry level.

Can you knap a Solutrean- or Clovis-style tool, by the way, Graf?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein on June 26, 2012, 01:51:35 PM

Pillaging the coast of Viking-era Greenland had to be one of the crappiest pirate gigs in history. "Argh, we've come to steal your sheep-urine saturated floorboards. And your emaciated cow. And-and-give us the rocks from your wall!" Maybe it was entry level.




"I `m sorry mate, but those have already been taken by the damnable Inutos last year. Only thing I can offer you is some seewheed."
One almost feels sorry for the pirates. They seem to have taken more the people themselves than their goods, but I can `t tell  if those made good slaves. Life must have been quite depressing in the last stages of Norse Greenland.



Can you knap a Solutrean- or Clovis-style tool, by the way, Graf?


As I said, paleolithics are not my camp and one can `t craft such things offhand. Stone tools are anything but primitive and each era must have had their own specialized craftsmen. Some people devote years trying to reproduce bygone technology.
However I made my own experiments with Bandkeramik and  Corded Ware style axes of basalt and amphibolite which taught me a lot about the skills of our ancestors. It must have been a really crappy job for the stone cutters apprentice to drill a hole in a amphibolit Rohling. And then, just millimeters to the breakthrough the thing breaks apart... One wrong and the job is botched (and it takes hours of labor before you even get to realize you botched it).  I feel profound respect for the craftsmanship of those people. 
Over the millenia we forgot as much much as we learned.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on June 26, 2012, 04:28:26 PM
On African colonisations of the Americas: certainly there is the lore of the Moorish colonisations of New Jersey, but beyond this there is some anomolous (spelling?) campfire evidence in South America, and lots and lots of "Negroid" head statues from the Columbia River basin area to the furthest reaches of Central America, and Native American lore. Then there are the various "Black Indians" from the Mardi Gras Indians to the Creeks in Florida, and no real evidence the blacks in these groups were runaway slaves.

On tools: certainly convergent evolution in tool-making is a distinct possibility, as is the possibility that tools acquired over vast distances via trade could inspire the new owners to emulate the technique, which is also true of abandoned and rediscovered tool kits. Just sayin.

On the piss-poor prospects of raiding the Viking raiders/squatters in West Greenland: besides rustling the dwarf cows, there is also driftwood. Srs tho, there is lore the Pope sold the nominally Catholic lost colony to Portuguese slavers who carried off the able-bodied to sell in the Azores ca. 1500 something. There are also tales of Dutch raids along the settled West Coast. Further, there is some documentary evidence of raids by the English on both Iceland and Greenland, and of a covert operation by Bacon or one of those fellows with secret maps of Greenland and sailor-informants who had visited the mythical isle of "Brazil" providing further information from the port of Liverpool about the choice lands in the New World ready for British colonisation in collaboration with the British crown against the interests of other European powers.

On the Norse in North America: the sagas provide some very specific information on the material technology of the "Skraeling" culture encountered during subsequent voyages of discovery, timber expeditions and colonisation efforts. One thing they had was exploding skin bags, according to the sagas. Inflating seal skins is a very Eskimo thing, whether Dorset or Inuit. Snorri did write long after the fact, but his sagas seem fairly reliable. There are some fantastic tales of Greenland later, involving homophobia of all things and a flight to refuge in Denmark. On the archaeological side, there is a find of a Norwegian coin in Maine bearing the likeness of the king following the one Leif allegedly met and who imparted to Leif the mission to Christianise Greenland. What strata this was found in and whether it is part of that stratum or an insertion or hoax, I do not know. Nonetheless, there is evidence of Norse settlements in Arctic Canada and of iron smelting operations. There are also Greenlandic cultural items at Inuit sites, whether trade items or carried by the Greenlanders themselves, no one knows at this point. In Greenland the archaeology includes North American items such as buffalo fur and North American hardwoods which had to be imported through human effort.

My own opinion is that the Greenlandic Norse didn't go extinct and their fate is fairly prosaic, they simply assimilated to Inuit populations in Greenland and Arctic Canada as Europe grew distant, first because of the plague, and then because of the worsening climate and lack of communication, or interest, for that matter, on the part of Europeans.

Leonard Nimoy's program In Search Of had an episode about the Norse in Arctic Canada in the 1970s including evidence of a Norse-style long house on Baffin Island I believe, and what looked like a monolith in the shape of Thor's hammer. The whole Blond Eskimo thing still hasn't been debunked thoroughly either, in my opinion. It is possible Menzies' ideas on the genetics of a certain population in the Great Lakes region, linking them to Thera off Greece and metal extraction operations in the neolithic, is also correct. It seems likely to me as well that Basque whalers and fishermen did make it to the Gulf of St. Lawrence rather early.

There is some speculation that Inuit made the crossing in the opposite direction, talk of Eskimo graves in Ireland and Scotland. I don't know about this, but have heard talk of it.



Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Rob on June 27, 2012, 12:48:37 PM
It's called "gurning", people hold competitions for it. It's an English thing  ;D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurn)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Eiwce13X738/SztP8nvKTDI/AAAAAAAAHsE/aZoFcHmVY6E/s400/gurning.jpg)


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Vulpine on June 27, 2012, 01:29:19 PM
Wow, and I thought Americans had weird competitions...


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Inner Prop on June 27, 2012, 01:31:53 PM
You have got to be kidding me.  This isn't just some Monty Python thing?

I'll bet you those Innsmouth folks could win very often though.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on June 27, 2012, 03:21:18 PM
Leave it to those wacky Brits to come up with something like that. ;)

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein on June 28, 2012, 02:42:02 PM
On African colonisations of the Americas: certainly there is the lore of the Moorish colonisations of New Jersey, but beyond this there is some anomolous (spelling?) campfire evidence in South America, and lots and lots of "Negroid" head statues from the Columbia River basin area to the furthest reaches of Central America, and Native American lore. Then there are the various "Black Indians" from the Mardi Gras Indians to the Creeks in Florida, and no real evidence the blacks in these groups were runaway slaves.

I must confess I `m biased here with all the Däniken- ethnology that `s going on on that. So many  quacks are trodding that field it `s hard to be serious. Reading this stuff one sometimes gets the impression of  Atlantic crossings as leisurly weekend trips for the family.
„Oh crap, we forgot Kevin!“
Don `t worry dear. We `ll pick him up next time. Meanwhile our nice Phoenicean neighbours will look after him.“
Regarding any kind of native American art, I don `t understand it, so I don `t dare judge what the artist himself wanted to express when crafting a thing that to a modern European looks like an African face. Same goes for any kind of folklore. Speaking of Vikings, you could also find hints for Moores in the old north if you just want to. Names like „Flatnose“ or „The Black Halfdane“ are quite suggestive to the decided. You could also do some amateurish etymology on Berserkers and Serkland and abrakadabra – there they are: Sarrazenes in King Haralds entourage!
Just as an impromtu parallalel.
What makes the thing so uncredible for me is the simple fact, that there is no known African civilization with the necessary naval abilities and the recources to establish and maintain a big enough colony to make an impact . I am ready to accept the concept of Abu Bakr like expeditions, maybe even successful ones. People are curious, everywhere and it `s only logical that enventually some guys would gather on whatever vessels they have at hand to try to find out what lies behind the horizon. But think of the expenses the British had to make until their American colonies got over the point of selfsustainability.  

On tools: certainly convergent evolution in tool-making is a distinct possibility, as is the possibility that tools acquired over vast distances via trade could inspire the new owners to emulate the technique, which is also true of abandoned and rediscovered tool kits. Just sayin.

I think we can rule out trade here. Tracing the origin of a piece of stone is not such a big thing and if there were ancient tools made of European material discovered in America, the news would be full of them.

On the Norse in North America: the sagas provide some very specific information on the material technology of the "Skraeling" culture encountered during subsequent voyages of discovery, timber expeditions and colonisation efforts. One thing they had was exploding skin bags, according to the sagas. Inflating seal skins is a very Eskimo thing, whether Dorset or Inuit. Snorri did write long after the fact, but his sagas seem fairly reliable

That `s good enough prove that the events described were not just invented, but who ever wrote them down centuries later may not have been sure were exactly what event took place. Speaking in Saga terminology, Dorset people were home to Hellunland and Markland. By Columbus time they had in fact been replaced by the Thule culture, which also spread across Greenland. Most probably this was due to the climate change. Vinland population however remained quite stable, so Newfoundland/Newengland travelling Vikings would certainly not have encountered any Eskimo like people so far south. Not even Snorri (how do you tie him to the Vinland texts anyway?)was a historian in the modern sense and had evaluated his sources as one would do today. Even the very concept of „truth“ has to be a different one for a medieval christian scholar.
Remember how Grönlendinga Saga describes what seems like a Christian procession among American natives.

My own opinion is that the Greenlandic Norse didn't go extinct and their fate is fairly prosaic, they simply assimilated to Inuit populations in Greenland and Arctic Canada as Europe grew distant, first because of the plague, and then because of the worsening climate and lack of communication, or interest, for that matter, on the part of Europeans.



Some surely will have done that. Ivar Barðarsson `s report on the end of Vestrybygð points into that direction. That would also be a good terminus ante quem for any Vinland travels of the Norse Greenlanders.
Making up Vinland hoaxes seems to be as much fun as crafting big footprints. Maybe that could serve as an inspiration for Bob: Make your own Kensington Stone.
The Maine Penny itself however is genuine but the circumstances of the find are doubtworthy. It wasn `t dug out by professionals but presentet to the Maine State Museum in the 1970ies by a guy who claimed to have found it on a knwon archaeologigal site on Penobscot Bay which was an Indian trading point in the 12/13th century.  
Similar goes for almost all of the strey Viking artifacts in North America except for L Anse aux Medaux. Nothing definitive so far. The American originated finds in Greenland are much more clear for that matter. Altogether it adds to frequent visits (mainly wood and ore gathering) for about three centuries but no settlement.
Canadian archaeologist Patricia Sutherland however did some amazing field work in the Arctic region which might change our view on Norse-Dorset contacts in medieval times. Still due to proper publication as far as I know and highly ontroversial.
If I were a believer of any kind I would so pray for the descovery of some lasting Norse settlement in the Americas.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein on June 28, 2012, 02:43:37 PM
By the way, just for the half-illiterate German: Why do we have two threads on that one? Both of them Esqiumaux-inflicted...


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Genus Unknown on June 28, 2012, 02:44:55 PM
Wow, just noticed that.

Consider them merged!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: T. Kelly Lee on June 29, 2012, 08:57:49 AM
To address Old Book - It seems that a lot of stories of pre-Columbian migration (grey-eyed Welsh, etc.) have been pretty well dismissed these days due to genetic mapping of modern populations.  We still don't know a lot about who came to North America 10,000 years ago, but we know a lot about those who were here when Columbus arrived and they seem to be of pretty solid Asiatic descent.  What this underscores, of course, is the notion that migration happened in waves and, while land bridges were open, was pretty consistent. 

The problem with history as we currently understand it, is that our perception of human culture is shaped by Victorian historians who assumed that everyone in the past basically lived like Medieval Europeans - staying put or at least not roaming far.  In fact, now, we know that's not true - not even in the Medieval time period.  Kennewick Man and some other finds indicate that humans wandered from Western Europe, across Asia, and into North America in the space of a SINGLE life time.  Hunter-gatherers followed food and they were clearly looking for places on the planet where population pressures hadn't dwindled the good eats. 

My personal opinion is, however, that migration until very recent times was limited by land travel.  We know from how the Phoenicians, Vikings, and others sailed that a unidirectional deep ocean crossing was pretty tough.  If someone DID make it here by that method, they're likely not leaving many artifacts behind.  The best candidate is the Chinese.  So for ancient Europeans to have made it here, their options are pretty limited - especially so considering they couldn't travel atop glaciers without a food source and great risk.  If they came, they came in large numbers, to leave behind so many artifacts.   

To me the likeliest scenario for a very early East Coast incursion is that a large population of Europeans, due to climate pressures, began migrating East following heards of animals.  Within a period of, say, ten years (not long enough for their technology to drift) they migrated until they hit an unpassable ocean - which is the Atlantic on the Eastern Coast of North America.  When they attempted to return, immediately, they found that other groups had migrated in behind them and now they're limited by warefare, etc as a means of getting back to their point of origin, so there is a general American diaspora.  This would explain why Clovis culture could have migrated from the East Coast of the USA to the West, without having to add in the problems of an Atlantic or Arctic crossing. 


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on June 29, 2012, 03:46:29 PM
Yes, that's completely conceivable. When I wrote "colonisation" I didn't mean in the modern sense of back-and-forth communication; I think whoever landed, at various times, in North and South America probably didn't maintain much contact if any with the Old Country up till 1492 or so. Some of the more recent scholarship is marked by a certain Afro-centric suspension of disbelief, according to which Africans were coming and going and "forgetting Kevin." I don't necessarily buy into that, but I think some did come out of Africa to the Americas. The "Negroid" head sculptures in themselves are not convincing evidence of much at all, but taken in the broader context of evidence I think they are germaine.

I'm not really very familiar with newer genetic studies. I'm perfectly willing to dismiss the Kensington rune-stone and the Maine penny and the Stone Mill and a lot of other artifacts, but I still think overall there was input from Europe, Asia and Africa.

An interesting idea I came across recently in some of the journals was that there were ice-free areas on the west coast of North America which served as havens for possible canoers from East Asia, including the Olympic Peninsula in Washington state, shortening the vast distances required to sustain colonisation/settlement during the last Ice Age.

Well, I'd sure like to say a lot more, but I've had a few beers already, and maybe it's better if I stop now, because I might come up with some real bullshit I won't be able to defend later in any way.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on June 29, 2012, 03:57:12 PM
It's called "gurning", people hold competitions for it. It's an English thing  ;D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurn)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Eiwce13X738/SztP8nvKTDI/AAAAAAAAHsE/aZoFcHmVY6E/s400/gurning.jpg)

I favor this contestant from the new Greenlandic youth magazine Toornara:

(http://knr.gl/sites/default/files/imagecache/340X264_news/toornara%20-%20knr.gl_.jpg)



Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Konrad Hartmann on June 30, 2012, 07:35:52 PM
 The problem with history as we currently understand it, is that our perception of human culture is shaped by Victorian historians who assumed that everyone in the past basically lived like Medieval Europeans - staying put or at least not roaming far.  In fact, now, we know that's not true - not even in the Medieval time period.  Kennewick Man and some other finds indicate that humans wandered from Western Europe, across Asia, and into North America in the space of a SINGLE life time.  Hunter-gatherers followed food and they were clearly looking for places on the planet where population pressures hadn't dwindled the good eats.

At a much later period, we also have the Tarim basin mummies to also illustrate the propensity for travel.

To me the likeliest scenario for a very early East Coast incursion is that a large population of Europeans, due to climate pressures, began migrating East following heards of animals.  Within a period of, say, ten years (not long enough for their technology to drift) they migrated until they hit an unpassable ocean - which is the Atlantic on the Eastern Coast of North America.  When they attempted to return, immediately, they found that other groups had migrated in behind them and now they're limited by warefare, etc as a means of getting back to their point of origin, so there is a general American diaspora.  This would explain why Clovis culture could have migrated from the East Coast of the USA to the West, without having to add in the problems of an Atlantic or Arctic crossing. 
That seems like the most parsimonious explanation, but could it really be done in a mere ten years?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on July 01, 2012, 12:40:42 PM
I think the mystery of the Tarim/Turfan/Tocharian mummies isn't really genetic, it's that they represent a remnant of an earlier civilisation that was genetically heterogenous and culturally advanced and interested in education and preserving wisdom across cultures and time. The Uighur Kingdom's embrace of Manichean gnosticism and Manichean inroads into China and the adoption of a Syriac script are probably later extensions of this, and Lao Tsu's legendary retreat to the west, to the land of the philosophers, is probably a somewhat earlier expression of this fact.

On the parsimoniousness of that other explanation, I got lost somewhere. The Europeans travelled EAST to the Atlantic and then found their regress blocked by newcomers? Sorry, I got lost somewhere.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Yojimbo on July 04, 2012, 11:08:55 AM
Kennewick Man and some other finds indicate that humans wandered from Western Europe, across Asia, and into North America in the space of a SINGLE life time.

No. Kennewick Man's skull shows Caucasoid features, but that's a long way from saying he was Caucasian. The only thing the courts proved was that he couldn't be connected to any living, federally recognized Native American tribes. Kennewick Man was most likely of Asian descent (see also the Ainu for Asians with physical similarities to Caucasians) and born in the Americas.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Konrad Hartmann on July 04, 2012, 08:14:56 PM
I think the mystery of the Tarim/Turfan/Tocharian mummies isn't really genetic, it's that they represent a remnant of an earlier civilisation that was genetically heterogeneous and culturally advanced and interested in education and preserving wisdom across cultures and time. The Uighur Kingdom's embrace of Manichean gnosticism and Manichean inroads into China and the adoption of a Syriac script are probably later extensions of this, and Lao Tsu's legendary retreat to the west, to the land of the philosophers, is probably a somewhat earlier expression of this fact.

I stand corrected:http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15#IDAH0OBH (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15#IDAH0OBH)

By the way, the exhibit that China permitted to be shown in the U.S. required that the exhibiting museum (I saw it at Penn Museum in Philadelphia) use the text written by the Chinese government. The government descriptions were so sparse as to be laughable, like, "Red hat made of felt."


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on July 07, 2012, 02:21:55 PM
Konrad:-- there seems to be a bit of a war among Turfan mummie scholars over their genetic origins that I wasn't completely aware of. Joseph Farrell's giz death star website has some of it in the comments under his posting about a Russian academic paper rejecting the Out of Africa genesis of modern humans. Most of it is racist claptrap, but it does sound as if there is a real dispute in the background over the actual genetic affinities of the mummies.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Konrad Hartmann on July 18, 2012, 10:43:43 PM
I wish that I had a better understanding of genetics in order to make sense of the argument. As far as I can tell, MattB seems to be making the best argument, and claims them to be West Asian with a variety of genetics included.

The wooden structures, the poles, surrounding the site also interested me. They appear (at least superficially) similar to the arrangement found at Celtic sites such as Glauberg in Germany.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Inner Prop on July 19, 2012, 06:17:19 AM
Down with Clovis, up with Paisley.  Just listened to the podcast at The Archaeology Channel (http://www.archaeologychannel.org/AudioNews.asp) and they mentioned this (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-07/uoc-tcf071112.php).

BTW, I highly recommend that podcast for non-fiction listening.  My only complaint about it is that it's too short.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on July 19, 2012, 01:55:37 PM
Down with Clovis, up with Paisley.  Just listened to the podcast at The Archaeology Channel (http://www.archaeologychannel.org/AudioNews.asp) and they mentioned this (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-07/uoc-tcf071112.php).

BTW, I highly recommend that podcast for non-fiction listening.  My only complaint about it is that it's too short.

Where is your doggerland now??? jk

Apparently there is a European haplo-group well attested in a group of Native Americans around the Great Lakes (Ojibway/Chippewa I think) and throughout North America in a vague substrate sort of way. Someone (above? not sure) mentioned the wild-hair Asian Y group that's all over the map, and recently I heard someone make the case this was actually the work of Ghengis Khan personally. idk.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on July 23, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
Yeah, Ghengis seemed to love the ladies. That's a lot of DNA out in the world.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Konrad Hartmann on July 25, 2012, 10:01:43 PM
Down with Clovis, up with Paisley.  Just listened to the podcast at The Archaeology Channel (http://www.archaeologychannel.org/AudioNews.asp) and they mentioned this (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-07/uoc-tcf071112.php).

BTW, I highly recommend that podcast for non-fiction listening.  My only complaint about it is that it's too short.

I just listened to this today and enjoyed it very much. Coprolites, eh? I was wondering why someone would have left that inside the cave instead of going outside, but, at least in arctic climates where caloric expenditures are critical, it may be common to do it even inside igloos.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on July 27, 2012, 08:29:08 AM
This may be a case of Ocam's (sp) Razor: bad weather means you poop in the cave.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein on July 31, 2012, 05:18:09 PM
And don `t forget that age-old saying of any good Inuto mother to their kids: Don `t eat the yellow snow!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 01, 2012, 02:45:25 PM
FWIW according to the old accounts the Inuit in Greenland traditionally had a pisspot in the corner of their turf-and-rock dwellings (with contorted entrance corridor to keep out the cold). The urine was collected and used for treating seal pelts iirc. There was an ingenious soap-stone dish used to hold marine mammal oil with some sort of wick set in the center, and this low flame provided the heat and light for the long winter. From what I remember reading, the smell of the seal oil combined with several months worth of urine overpowered genteel European noses who weren't accustomed to the Greenlandic olfactory experience, so sleep-overs weren't all that common if possibly avoided.

I think the old maxim, "don't shit in the nest," however, applied.

Anyway, if Paisley Caves is what I think it is, I remember hearing that habitation site was covered over by a collapsing mountain or something, so what are caves now might have been ditches before? Just a thought.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Inner Prop on August 01, 2012, 08:40:51 PM
So you're saying that tradition of offering your wife to a visitor was a safe bet since no visitor could take you (and her) up on the offer?


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: old book on August 03, 2012, 12:51:28 PM
No visitor? Depends on their familiarity and tolerance of certain smells, I guess. I have heard there were a bunch of children sired by explorers during the expeditions to northern Greenland over a century ago.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Bob Lovecraft on August 10, 2012, 11:06:27 AM
No visitor? Depends on their familiarity and tolerance of certain smells, I guess. I have heard there were a bunch of children sired by explorers during the expeditions to northern Greenland over a century ago.

Well yeah. You get used to a smell. But you don't get used to lack of nookie. Proven fact.

Bob


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Inner Prop on August 13, 2012, 08:03:13 AM
True dat, brah


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein on September 04, 2012, 10:02:44 AM
I hope nobody pointed this out before
Yesterday I was browsing over some old books of mine and had an "Oh-me-gawd-why-did-I-never-think-of-this-before" moment.
Part of the wave of archaeologic discoveries in the 1920ies and 30ies was the unearthing of a pre-sumerian civilization in Mesopotamia named the Obed- Culture (after a site near ancient Ur), a striking feature of whitch were strange humanoid figurines displaying some kind of Innsmouth Look:
(http://www.ufo-contact.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Sumerian-Annunaki-sculptures-Hybrid-Aliens-DNA-Reptilian.jpeg)

Yes they `re more reptilian than ichthyoid, it `s not really a Tiara they `re wearing and the name is the Bible as well. But I think the semblance is striking. As Lovecraft `s work reflects the progress of ancient history as much as that of the natural sciences this could well have been an inspiration for the Deep Ones.

 


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: T. Kelly Lee on September 04, 2012, 10:58:49 AM
Graf, I think you mean "Obeid Culture" (now usually known as the Ubaid Period).  It's named after Tel al-Obeid where their sites were found! 

That being said, I sure as hell think HPL drew upon Sumerian art for his inpsirations and there is evidence he was well-schooled in what Gnostic writings were extant in his day.  I think Obed Marsh gets his name from the Obed mentioned in the Bible (Obed, the Servant of God, not Obed-Edom) - who was an ancestor of David...and, by default, an ancestor of Jesus Christ. 

To me, that seems like the kind of little joke HPL would have enjoyed!   


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein on September 04, 2012, 02:22:46 PM
I should have considered that the English spelling would be slightly different, as well as the typical American preference for biblical names. However, I didn `t mean to point this out as THE origin of the fishpeople but I feel there is a source of inspiration that generally does not seem to get much attention. Or at least I am not aware that it `s recognized.
In Lovecraft `s lifitime there were numerous Nameless Cities of undeterminable age with mysterious art and illegible writing systems emerging from the deserts. A goldmine for any writer of the fantastic.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: T. Kelly Lee on September 05, 2012, 09:13:33 AM
Oh, yeah!  Sumerian archaeological news was HUGE in HPL's day! 

I think one of his leading influences were the popular legends of the lost city of the Rub' al Khali - the Empty Quarter - of the Arabian peninsula.  There was an exploring expedition there in 1931 that was heavily covered in the news.  Interestingly, there is a great book called The Road to Ubar on the use of space photography in actually uncovering a lost city in that region.  I love that stuff, man!


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: Inner Prop on August 16, 2013, 03:05:20 PM
I was just listening to Cthulhu Podcast's version of SoI and I got to thinking.  Was there ever a belief that fish didn't die?

I know there was a belief that sharks don't attack or eat people.  That was one of the reasons some of the people died when a series of shark attacks happened in New Jersey (the story that inspired Jaws).

They also believed that fish don't feel pain.  That's why it's okay to lance them with steel hooks through the mouth and then release them.


Title: Re: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Post by: fox01313 on October 01, 2013, 12:37:17 PM
Highly love this wicked story of HPL & really recommend the Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth game (link below for PC version which isn't that expensive & usually goes on sale a few times a year with the rest of the Steam catalog of games), the game also does a good job at just putting Innsmouth to life with some really creepy moments (ie. seeing a shadow of a something in a basement window briefly).

Not sure if this is in another part of the Podcraft forums but for some reason while listening to this Podcast on this story I got fixated on what are the Shuggoths are doing in Innsmouth & then pictured mentally the following:

   * Gillman house miniature shuggoth shows up with a bellboy hat to take your luggage

   * Replacing light bulbs in the street lamps when they burn out

   * Someone in Innsmouth's pet Iguana lizard (maybe named "fluffy" or "mr. whiskers" or "spot") would be stuck up in a tree, then have to call the Shuggoth fire department where the shuggoth arrives with a fireman's hat on making extra mouths for siren noises, then tries to get the lizard out of the tree without destroying the area or the lizard.

   * Working in the refinery making gold earrings, jewelery while having to try to wear name tags & do some really delicate work leading to some amusing problems sometimes

   * Old Man Marsh's car breaks down so shuggoth tow truck arrives to not only try to tow the car back to the mechanic but also try to fix or help in fixing it as what do the Deep Ones know about automotive repair?

   * Having to hold awkward poses for a really long time as a guide/brace while building or repairing some house to keep the partial Euclidian geometry (can't go scaring off the tourists too soon)

   * Mini shuggoth shows up at the general store to pick up magazines of "Better Kelp & Undersea Gardens", sea urchin pesticide & other horrific groceries.

   * Mini shuggoth drinks or absorbs something pink like pink lemonade then starts making silly shapes around Zadok after he's had a few drinks so instead of seeing pink elephants it's pink somethings.

(would actually try to draw them digitally but apart from insanity or fainting as well as on lunch break, just can't at the moment)

PS-would greatly enjoy reading or seeing that fan fiction mentioned in this about H.P. Lovecraft meeting Hemmingway. Been wondering about what Lovecraft would have thought about that Hemmingway breed of cats with the extra toe. After all the recent black cat appearances in H.P. Lovecraft stories, think we maybe should start calling all black cats a Lovecraftian or Eldritch breed of cats.

Steam link to the PC version of the game - Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth
http://store.steampowered.com/app/22340/ (http://store.steampowered.com/app/22340/)