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Author Topic: What does it mean to be "Lovecraftian"?  (Read 5871 times)
Jape
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« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2012, 06:41:43 AM »

Personally I hate Anne rice's vampire stories - "oh, oh, I'm immortal and no one understands me" or "I can be an asshole because I am powerful"  pfaugh

Agreed. Although far from a perfect film, Shadow of the Vampire (AKA what if Count Orlock in Nosferatu was played by an actual vampire, which does ignore the fact Max Schreck was a famous actor but never-mind... ) tapped into what I've always enjoyed about vampire mythology. I'm something of a history nerd, with a love of folklore so I actually came at most horror tropes from the historical side before reading a lot of popular fiction. As such I've always found the idea of the bohemian, and particularly the sympathetic bohemian vampire, laughably contrived. We're talking about an immortal that lives off human blood and can only roam about at night. Such an existence would breed a ghoulish nut job, not the a nice boy with deep feelings or nihilistic pleasure seeker. Orlock in SotV has one great scene where he points out the saddest scene in Dracula for him is the sight of a once great aristocrat being forced to pretend he has servants and set the table for his guest in secret. You can have pity for the loss of humanity but your ultimately dealing with a frankly disgusting cannibal parasite, that in order to escape death has thrown out all other human parameters.

I suppose you could have an Anne Rice style vampire who bemoans their fate all the time and has little love for their life, but the idea they are the protagonist is silly to me - they're the ultimate Other because they commit unspeakable acts but maintain a somewhat human mind throughout. Which a reason I've always sympathised more with the werewolf, when committing its deeds, its not human in any form and has no control. If a vampire truly loathed what it did, it simply has to step into the light.

Of course that's the modern synthesised vampire, Eastern European folklore has far more overlap with what we would class as ghouls, zombies, even daemons.  Simply if your going from Bram Stoker onwards, I feel a vampire would have more in common with Ed Gein than a weeping poet.

Its also a reason I've started to read up on revenants, the Norman English cousin to the vampire. They had a far more elemental side, acting effectively as the messenger of death, taunting the living, urging them to "hurry up", which would invoke disease upon villages. The stories varied, sometimes they took on animal form, sometimes they drank blood or simply attacked people, sometimes they simply 'bullied' them, sometimes packs of daemonic hounds followed them about.

But that's all a bit of a tangent.

More on topic I'd like to mention Quatermass and the Pit, a 1950s BBC teleplay. Its certainly not Lovecraftian in its whole but it includes ancient aliens that engineered man and through psychic osmosis bled into human folklore as ghouls and monsters (as such ancient myths in dusty tomes are reconsidered from a scientific POV), there's scientists who dig too far, and the truth revealed leads to a riot of madness in the streets of London. However it has relatively positive Jet Age kind of ending, part 'beware!' part 'progress marches on!'. Its certainly a cut above your average pulpy fair of the period though.

Its predecessor The Quatermass Experiment also has elements. Its about the first manned mission into space (conducted by Her Majesty's Rocket Group naturally) during which an unknowable force kills most of the crew. The only survivor becomes infected and slowly degenerates (or on a cosmic level arguably evolves) into a truly alien thing. Arguably its more Lovecraftian for its message of the dangers inherent the abyss of space and the unknowable, faceless elements that are the antagonist. However sadly the last few installments were destroyed forever, so only the scripts and a 2000s remake remains.
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T. Kelly Lee
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« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2012, 08:14:20 AM »

Quatermass was created by the great English writer Nigel Kneale.  He was once asked if he were a fan of HPL and said he'd never read him - however, they shared the same influences.  The three cinema versions of the Quatermass stories survive and they're pretty damn good.  I actually prefer the 1967 film version of Quatermass and the Pit to the TV version - mostly because of the cinematography and the brilliant casting.  If you need a fix, I recommend the Stone Tape - it's a Kneale serial and very Lovecraftian as well. 

The thing about vampires, to me, seems pretty basic - thought they were common in all of human folklore, in the past they were typically either supposed to be 1) reanimated corpses that were barely human or 2) ethereal creatures like incubi and succubi that plagued people in their dreams.  In short, that aspect of folklore probably evovled as a way to explain everything from diseases like malaria to sleep paralysis. 

But Stoker laced the vampire character with a ton of sexuality.  Dracula is a sexual predator as much as anything else - and all of that is really unspoken, though implied in the story.  The Victorians, besieged by the Ripper, sexual suppression, and a plague of STDs, found the whole thing both shocking and alluring.  Since that writing the vampire has become the stand-in for the human desire to sexually engage with the bad boy/girl and give into our baser lust.  The vampire has become a manifestation of our animalistic desires personified.  They's not so much the Other, as they are a monster from our own Id.  In a way, they do what all of us secretly long to do - they're  our primitive self writ large in the modern world.  And I'm fine with that trope.  It's this notion that the vampire is some kind of brooding anti-hero that puts me off - just another way for teenagers to manifest unrealistic expectations about adult relationships.  BLAH. 
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Jape
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« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2012, 08:35:22 AM »

They's not so much the Other, as they are a monster from our own Id.  In a way, they do what all of us secretly long to do - they're  our primitive self writ large in the modern world.  And I'm fine with that trope.  It's this notion that the vampire is some kind of brooding anti-hero that puts me off - just another way for teenagers to manifest unrealistic expectations about adult relationships.  BLAH. 

A very good point. I was trying to get at the anti-hero trope in my rambling post. If you want a sexually dangerous anti-hero for the kids, stick with Ziggy Stardust.
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« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2012, 11:38:57 PM »

I still say this Finnish 'art house horror' movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1124394/) is very Lovecraftian. A group of 16th century cavalry soldiers and scholars come across something so weird and alien that it appears to them as something they can identify, speculations are made, secrets are unearthed and madness ensues. Great flick!   
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« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2012, 01:31:40 PM »

Ooh, Sauna is available on Netflix.  Finnish horror, that's a new one for me.  *adds*
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« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2012, 03:19:34 PM »

Ooh, Sauna is available on Netflix.  Finnish horror, that's a new one for me.  *adds*

You beat me to it, Vulpine.

Bob
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« Reply #81 on: July 04, 2012, 01:10:10 PM »

I wish I could remember which movie it was.  I saw a comedy-esque vampire movie where, at one point a titanic monster rises out of the seas and the hero is asked to deal with it by the other characters.  He responds that he is a vampire hunter, he doesn't deal with this, "Lovecraft sh!t."

I can't remember enough of the rest of the movie to tell how germaine that sea monster was.  I just thought it was funny since I think about that everytime I see a monster movie.  If the monster is personal and on a human level, then it is certainly not Lovecraftian.  If it is indifferent and powerful beyond the ability of the characters to deal with then it is.
Transylvania Twist!  that was it.  I have to find a copy and report back.

Boy, I hate to say it, but I'm pretty sure I never saw that T.Twist movie ( although who knows, it's possible ) but that quote is terribly familiar.  I'm not totally sure, I pretty much watch any horror or horror send up that comes on, so at this point it's all a mishmash.

But to be honest, I actually seem to recall that type of joke more than one time, where in the end an over the top world eating monster shows up in a comedy send up of horror movies ( of course ) and one of the up till now relatively competent "anti evil forces" characters says something like "This Lovecraft stuff is outside my pay grade!"

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« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2012, 03:38:17 PM »

Yes, I agree in that for the purposes of casual conversation there's no reason to mix it up with labels regarding what is or isn't "Lovecraftian."  But if we want to play the game a little bit and dip our toes into the deeper waters of Lovecratian "scholarship" then there is some value there in analyzing his tropes and literary patterns.  For so long literary scholars just chucked Howie into the bin with a bunch of other unmemorable pulp writers.  But in recent decades people have been asking the serious question of how a writer of pulps could have SO MUCH influence on modern literature and entertainment.

Horro lit is one of America's greatest contributions to the literary genre.  Of course the genius Poe gave the world both the detective story and the horror story.  Like Poe, I think HPL transcended the baser aspect of the genre and created literature - and with its grounding in Jazz Age New England, genuinely American literature. 

While HPL's literary style, themes, and even his genre evolved I think if you look at his stuff critically you will find an essential core that perhaps even he wasn't aware of.  Take,for instance, the Outsider - written in 1921 and very much a representation of HPL's "Poe period."  At it's core it's the story of a loner who fills his days with rummaging around an empty "house" reading antique books and wondering what life outside is like.  When he finally finds out, it is revealed that his life is an utter lie and he is, in fact, a creature of the tomb.  His compulsion to know the truth drove him to discover an even greater horror. 

Now Mountains of Madness was written ten years later, but at its core it's about the same story.  A team of scientists, alone and driven by their compulsion for knowledge discover that the truth leads to even greater horror and malaise than NOT knowing.  In essence, a lot of the story is just window dressing on that same theme. 

Ultimately HPL's stories are all autobiographcial. You grow up thinking you're warm and safe and wealthy only to find out your father died in a madhouse of sexually transmitted disease, your mother was also insane, and the wealth you were told you could rely on just wasn't there.  Couple that with HPL's loss of faith and the scientific advances of his time and you get a guy who is both fascinated by the terror the future holds but also longing desperately to flee into a safer, more ignorant past. 

Today  we live in a post-modern era where our idols are smashed on a daily basis.  None of us trust our institutions, we all know we're just hairless apes, and every day the news brings another story on the origins of the universe that boggles the mind.  We're used to it.  But that post-modern mindset was born out of the malaise of the 1920's.  Hemmigway captured that anxiety in stories like The Sun Also Rises, but HPL used horror as a way to capture his feelings.  And, I would argue, that's a more lasting contribution than Hem's work because, as a horror writer, HPL was not bound by the times in which he was writing.  He made himself relevant to all ages. 

So that's why I see at least some value in underestanding what it means to be Lovecraftian.  August Derleth didn't get it.  And Robert Howard had his own fears and phobias.  King is a pastiche at best and a parody at his worst.  Just throwing in a tentacled monster or a referene to the mythos doesn't make your story "Lovecraftian" - it's the pure terror of the existential crisis that sums up the man's greatest fears.  And that involves facing those fears alone.  We all have to die alone and that's why it's so damn terrifying. 

That's what underlies HPL's writing - that everyone is believing the Big Lie and what is truly terrifying is to fall out of the herd and discover the truth - and that that truth is cold and indifferent like death itself.     

Of course, any definition has positive and negative aspects, just like a set of numbers in arithmetic there is "what is included" and "excluded".

I think this above from T. Kelly Lee comes the closest to what I always thought made Lovecraft a sort of "unique set" unto himself.  It brings to mind when HPL laments ( to paraphrase ) I have my Poe, my Dunsany, etc. pieces, where are my Lovecraft pieces?, I really feel this is the key point.

Up until Lovecraft, writers of horror were gothic, even if they didn't use dark castles or rattling chained spirits.  Even more, they followed a certain rigid recipe of "comeuppance".  You could argue there are a few people, like Andrew Bierce, who occasionally pulled at the yoke of fabulism enough to say they were trying to escape it, but all of their tales are fundamentally stuck in a structure where a universal ledger book was being kept in balance.

To whit:  someone does something morally terrible, causing static electric charge to build in the clouds above, enter the Poe/Lovecraft discharge of atmospheric cleansing.

Outside Horror, a lot of authors were starting to play with the sort of "there is nothing else" theme long before Lovecraft, maybe going back to Lucian, and it's interesting to note that many of these authors were the ones that were also being banned in conservative locales.  But, Horror I think was both a pop art form, and a conservative pop art form, in fact the most conservative pop art form.  This seems strange, in a way, as isn't horror about confronting things that are on the edge?  Although in a way, perhaps toeing the morals line was the method to keep them off the censor's list.

To me, what I thank Lovecraft for the most was two fold. 

First, it was that he dispensed with the old, tired mechanics.  He threw out ghosts and elaborate "Oh, they trained a [insert dangerous animal] to do their dirty work!" sort of schemes in Horror, and also the Bluebeard "man with a secret" alternative.  Instead, he brought in sci-fi themes and spot welded them into Horror.  Although I think as a sci-fi writer, HPL's stuff doesn't rise to the level of "hard" sci fi, it's more "syfy", he did start using them to nose around in the moral implications of a universe which could contain Hell without a wrathful Deity in it to give damnation purpose, which changed the motifs in place going back to "the Monk".

You could say Frankenstein was the glaring exception here where out of control science is the central engine, but I would say Frankenstein is fundamentally a Romantic/Gothic novel, par excellence, revenants and moral cul de sac fully intact.

Although, I think that the motifs/monsters is the less important thing.

The second thing he did was in the mechanic of the stories themselves he dispensed with the Poe lightning bolt.  Not just as such, but in the metaphorical sense.

Sure, he went back and forth and maybe on the outside you could say "Curiosity killed the cat" was still in his fables, but I think he broke the back of the need for a moral circle in stories.  This was something that horror writers seem to have never considered trying.  In some of his stories, the awful fates of his characters didn't always have to equate to their deeds like balancing a chemical reaction.

I guess, too, that as a "pulp" or "familiar" art, this was reaching an audience that wasn't going to travel to get "Lady Chatterley's Lover" in the next American State, or the next country in Europe.  This meant that it's impact was actually wider, that it hit a willing juvenile audience, and so over time it's result was larger.

Sure, Poe is a better writer, but in the end after reading him I can sort of picture several Victorians whose philosophical growth was stunted around the age of 12, acting scandalized over any of Poe's stories, even though they are fundamentally no more challenging to patrician assumptions than the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.  In fact, given how ruthlessly materialistic western societies were, that parable should have been more logically more jarring than Poe, by far.  Poe's momento mori short stories are interesting but if anything they reinforce a world view widely accepted, or at least tolerated, in his time of spiritualist churches.

Not all of the Lovecraft stories were auto-iconoclastic, but some of the better ones, the victim/hero is annihilated, or at least his ego as part of the human condition is annihilated, often by his own fundamental nature, not because he is guilty of a sin.

To me, everything else is sort of trimming, and while it's certainly a fingerprint of Lovecraft, just having a tentacled monster or organized legions of space navigating litter box users isn't the core.

Of course, I could be wrong and maybe someone can point me to an example that says otherwise.

Even Conan relentlessly clings to a "survival of the fittest ( most deserving )" thing, often coming close to self parody in the process.  Darwin's model allows for creatures that look like action heroes but doesn't allow for real ones.  A fish in water is an action hero, a fish out of water is probably dead.  To me that swashbuckler strain in the pulps is not really a departure from the "you earned it" awards show that Poe put on.  I think Lovecraft is the one who first snaps those chains, not the might thews of Howard, even though they played with similar ideas in the same sandbox. 

Even Hemmingway is, to me, a Romantic, in the end.  Camus comes closest to replicating the Lovecraft perspective, with his absurdism.... a long time later.

I have no doubt that Lovecraft was being prodded by the scientific understanding of the world in his time, which was just then dealing a new flurry of serious blows to the "revealed truth" assumptions of the past.  Couple that with the devastating senselessness of WWI, and the zeitgeist was disillusionment.  It leaves one to question how important HPL really was, as these ideas were already grinding up the mental constructs of the past without his help.

I know that literature of every stripe was trying to absorb, embrace, challenge or just make peace with these new realities, but Lovecraft to me took another approach which was something approaching to openly grieve over the pit of the grave they made for the human ego as transcendent, and then to sort of stare into the black hole of the transhuman ( Innsmouth, Dunwich Horror, etc. ) as far as he could, and then to recognize that "wow, this could be a joke... well, it's not funny to me ha-ha as such, but, I mean, if you were an inhuman mass of immortal chaos, it would be a great ice breaker if you had to make a speech at the R'lyeh Brunch when the stars align next time.  'Say, did you ever hear the one about the finite bipedal individualized flesh creatures?'"

Well, maybe I'm totally wrong here, I am making some pretty sweeping claims and it's just my perspective.  I haven't even kept up with everything Joshi and other scholars have been doing lately ( 10 years or so behind ), so I'm probably totally wrong/ignorant.  As usual, I'm sure I'm ignorant.  But I would say Lovecraft has a case, particularly in the kids he influenced, in being the one who opened the doors to pop culture becoming primary instead of secondary.

Wow, never mind, that maybe is more than I can support.  Certainly he cast a long shadow.
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« Reply #83 on: July 14, 2012, 09:20:51 AM »

Being Lovcraftian means never having to say "I'm sorry" for fainting.
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« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2012, 10:20:13 PM »

Being Lovcraftian means never having to say "I'm sorry" for fainting.
++

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LewisD
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« Reply #85 on: September 01, 2012, 11:27:41 AM »

I think one of the key unifying features of Lovecraft is a reaction to the idea of a universe formed by evolution rather than by a god. Putting it in context he was writing in a time when the theory of evolution had fairly recently become entrenched and I think the acceptance of that world view shapes what Lovecraftian is: man is not the top of the pile, there are beings far greater than us and even humans (or particularly white humans) status is subject to threat from fish men and apes if they don't protect the advancements they have made (and the same is true for Old Ones also.). I think that sums up Lovecraft as best I can, but I don't know  if it's what other writers have taken on from him.
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« Reply #86 on: September 01, 2012, 07:12:24 PM »

Being Lovecraftian means writing prose that isn't so much purple as actually ultraviolet...or perhaps even some daemoniac hue totally unknown to nature and science alike!
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T. Kelly Lee
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« Reply #87 on: September 04, 2012, 01:20:50 PM »

Newton, I really appreciate your post above and I agree that HPL represents the transition point at which horror lit breaks from the gothic to the post modern.  You can see it coming in "The Great God Pan" or "the Willows" or "In the Court of the Dragon."  But HPL serves his masters well and creates a new genre - or at least takes the old genre in a very new direction. 

To me, HPL's writing is like the Book of Job...a bizarre outlier within the text, in which the devil is a civil servant and god is just a guy trying to fuck around with us - in other words, a powerful symbol for the universe AS IT IS, not as we want it to be.  No, Virginia, there is no Santa Claus.  For HPL, the greatest terror is that there IS NO JUSTICE in the world - that the universe exists without meaning.  Azatoth becomes a metaphor for the careless universe.  Gothic horror, as you say, still holds to the notion that there is someone there guarding the light.  In HPL's universe, the light itself is only a mirage. 
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« Reply #88 on: September 04, 2012, 08:14:35 PM »

Interesting post, TKL, but is Lovecraft really a 'postmodernist' writer? He arguably has modernist leanings (avowed atheism, enthusiasm for science) but at the same time is obviously terrified and contemptuous of the modern world as a whole. But I'm wary of retrospectively labelling books or other works of art or culture as 'postmodernist' - this term gets chucked around at books like A Passage To India, Moby Dick and even Tristram Shandy, all of which were written well before the 1950s which, as I understand it, is the earliest decade that the idea of a cultural phase after modernism became current.

Maybe this sounds like a cop-out, but I'd almost rather say that Lovecraft is just so far out there, outside of any kind of literary mainstream and accompanied by just a few hardy souls who shared his taste for taking 'weird tales' to that level of utter beyond-ness, that he doesn't really fit into any standard paradigm of literary movements or periods.

That's not to say he hasn't influenced a lot of postmodern writers and thinkers. There's a lot of Lovecraft in Burroughs, for instance - although in this light Burroughs is interesting as a sort of anti-Lovecraft, being xenophilic in the extreme (all those dusky Arab boys!), obsessed with (mostly gay) sex and more than at home amongst all manner of addicts, pushers, thieves, whores, pimps and all the other miscellaneous scum that HPL felt constantly threatened Anglo-Saxon civilization. But at the same time, he had a similar taste for true cosmic horror and was also disgusted at the meaningless, ugly violence and commercial degradation of the modern world.

Pop-culture's appropriation of Cthulhu as a suitable subject for plushy toys, novelty slippers and Hello Kitty x-over cartoons is postmodernist as all hell, of course.
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« Reply #89 on: September 05, 2012, 09:32:11 AM »

Yes, postmodernism as a discipline really came to the fore in the 1950's and 60's largely through the works of the likes of Derrida.  But we can say - in the way that Derrida did - that there were antecedent thinkers that had a postmodern outlook much earlier and did, indeed, influence the movement.  Chief among these, of course, was Nietzsche.  Nietzsche, himself, starts out with modernist inclinations - rejection of the Enlightenment and the worldview of divine justice, etc.  But as his project evolves he steps through the threshold of the postmodern and eventually calls for the transvaluation of all morality - the very essence of postmodern conceptualization.   Writers like Bradbury, Heinlein, Asimov, and Derleth were very much modernists.  In fact, Derleth tries to drag the Mythos back onto a modernist footing. 

But as HPL's project advances he - a fan of Nietzsche - progresses to that level himself.  His deconstructed universe is arbitrary, orderless, and meaningless.  The machinations of the "gods" are so outside our sphere of understanding as to be pointless.  There's clearly no morality - and not even power makes for morality.  HPL sets of a universal dichotomy - a comfortable world of lies with, behind it, a horrible world of truth that is mind-blasting when you come to understand it.  That, in itself, it the postmodernists dilemma: in beginning the project of deconstuction, you might strip away the veil and see the world as it is but you're left without any useful institutions.  Truth, ultimately, is not only meaningless, but useless. 

I think that's why you can make a case for HPL as a harbinger of post-modern literature.  And, indeed, horror is frankly te perfect model for that kind of philosophical undertaking.  HPL was drawing on Nietzsche, Gnostic tought, and a whole bunch of other writers who would eventually influence the postmodernists, so I think you can make a strong case for sloting his writing under that umbrella. 
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