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Author Topic: HPL stories you just don't really care for  (Read 8631 times)
Bob Lovecraft
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« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2011, 08:42:29 AM »

You know, I've always thought the "Doom that Came to Sarnath" was a really stupid story. I mean you have a story in which this horrid, bytracheon civilization is overthrown by the tides of man and utterly destroyed. Then you have the humans raising their own civilization that becomes insanely prosperous and lasts for ONE THOUSAND YEARS!!!!! Come on! That is a great run for a civilization. Tons of civilizations haven't lasted one thousand years, much less been that rich and powerful. And can you really call it revenge when it takes an entire race a millennium to pull its collective head out of its collective butt and get around to waging war on another race? The entire concept was just asinine to me.

Bob
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« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2011, 10:18:14 PM »

You know, I've always thought the "Doom that Came to Sarnath" was a really stupid story. I mean you have a story in which this horrid, bytracheon civilization is overthrown by the tides of man and utterly destroyed. Then you have the humans raising their own civilization that becomes insanely prosperous and lasts for ONE THOUSAND YEARS!!!!! Come on! That is a great run for a civilization. Tons of civilizations haven't lasted one thousand years, much less been that rich and powerful. And can you really call it revenge when it takes an entire race a millennium to pull its collective head out of its collective butt and get around to waging war on another race? The entire concept was just asinine to me.

Bob

*ahem*

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

....

But you have a point. It's impressive for one civilization to last that long. Rome didn't have nearly so good a run, not "real" Rome anyway.
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« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2011, 08:20:10 AM »

Thank you.

Bob
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« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2011, 01:10:36 AM »

You know, I've always thought the "Doom that Came to Sarnath" was a really stupid story. I mean you have a story in which this horrid, bytracheon civilization is overthrown by the tides of man and utterly destroyed. Then you have the humans raising their own civilization that becomes insanely prosperous and lasts for ONE THOUSAND YEARS!!!!! Come on! That is a great run for a civilization. Tons of civilizations haven't lasted one thousand years, much less been that rich and powerful. And can you really call it revenge when it takes an entire race a millennium to pull its collective head out of its collective butt and get around to waging war on another race? The entire concept was just asinine to me.

Bob

*ahem*

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

....

But you have a point. It's impressive for one civilization to last that long. Rome didn't have nearly so good a run, not "real" Rome anyway.
True, but it's possible that the latter-day Sarnathians were as close to their empire's founders as the Byzantines were to the Romans--if that makes sense. (The Byzantium Empire itself lasted a little more than 1000 years. If you count from the founding of Rome in 753 BC to the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD, a government that was directly descended from Romulus lasted well over 2000 years, and every variation of that government called itself "Roman".)
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« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2011, 10:06:37 AM »

The thing you have to remember about Doom That Came is that--some of you know this--it's partially based on an authentic tradition. There were the fishmen or man in Babylon or Sumeria or somewhere over there in Akkadia named Ionaes, who brought all sorts of learning, but there is another tradition that probably goes back to an earlier period. I was looking for a book I read once that mirrors something I've read in Lovecraft about this, for the thread in Literary about "create yor own HPL cycle," but couldn't find it, not completely anyway... something about a European explorer creeping up on some ruins in Arabia or Iraq or something late at night, a place locals all abhor, and a wind issuing forth from within the structure, stones above a deep system of tunnels... (in one of the fictional treatments of what seems to be the same actual place, the tunnels are lined with small coffins or cases containing small reptile-like beings, after the protagonist passes all the murals about the history of the ancient race etc., forgive me for failing to remember who wrote what when).

Sarnath is a real place, in India, but Lovecraft isn't really latching onto that Sarnath, a sort of holiday resort for British colonials and the odd freebooter such as Helena Petrovna Blavatsky...

Instead, if I remember correctly, Lovecraft situates his Sarnath near Irem, and the Pillars thereof.

Now, Irem and the Pillars of Irem are an esoteric Islamic tradition. In fact, you can find a book called Weird Orient by Henry Iliowizi (Philadelfia 1900) on archive.org which contains as its first two "tales" The Doom of al Zameri and Sheddad's Palace of Irem. "Tales" in inverted commas/quotation marks because Iliowizi didn't write them, he collected them in North Africa. The footnote to Sheddad's Palace on page 61 might be of interest:

* The Koran has this reference to the Palace of Irem, showing that it was already a tradition before the time of Mohammed :

"Hast thou not considered how the Lord dealt with Ad, the people of Irem, adorned by lofty buildings, the like whereof hath not been erected in the land?" (Surah 89; "The Daybreak.")

That Sheddad, having planted a garden in imitation of the heavenly paradise, had been smitten by lightning on his way hither, is another variation of the widely known legend.

(end of footnote)

I think this tale from this book is probably the source of the Irem in Through the Gates of the Silver Key:

That antique Silver Key, he said, would unlock the successive doors that bar our free march down the mightly corridors of space and time to the very Border which no man has crossed since Shaddad with his terrific genius built and concealed in the sands of Arabia Petraea the prodigious domes and uncounted minarets of thousand-pillared Irem. Half-starved dervishes--wrote Carter--and thirst-crazed nomads have returned to tell of that monumental portal, and of the Hand that is sculptured above the keystone of the arch, but no man has passed and returned to say that his footprints on the garnet-strewn sands within bear witness. The key, he surmised, was that for which the Cyclopean sculptured Hand vainly grasps.

Get it here:

http://www.archive.org/details/weirdorientninem00ilio
http://www.archive.org/details/weirdorient00iliorich

The dark stone temple where winds irrupt in the night is in another book. I thought it might be Adventures in Arabia among the Bedouins, Druses, Whirling Dervishes and Yezidee Devil Worshippers by W. B. Seabrook (New York 1927), but I can't find it now. You can acquire the latter at archive.org by searching under Texts then following the results and scrolling down the poorly-arranged page to All Files, clicking that, then choosing from among several formats (djvu, pdf etc.) and right-clicking to Save As. Here are some more direct links that might work:

http://www.archive.org/details/AdventuresInArabia
http://ia700400.us.archive.org/5/items/AdventuresInArabia/

I did find some things of interest in the latter. Here are some excerpts:

I interrupted him because I had heard of those Seven Towers more than once before, and I believed them to be as absolutely mythical as the Chinese "subterranean kingdom" or the caves of Sinbad. The tales I had previously hear, and which are widely current in the East, may be reduced to this:

Stretching across Asia, from Northern Manchuria, through Thibet, west through Persia, and ending in the Kurdistan, was a chain of seven towers, on isolated mountain-tops; and in each of these towers sat continually a priest of Satan, who by "broadcasting" occult vibrations controlled the destinies of the world for evil.

...

Things began to ping against my shoulder and the side of the car. I thought they were little stones, but they turned out to be grasshoppers. Soon we were running through clouds of them. They battered the windshield and came in at the side. Those which weren't stunned by the impact crawled all over us. We forgot our hatred as we fought them off. They spat "tobacco juice" like any Christian grasshoppers, but swarmed like Pharaoh's plague. Presently there were gone as suddenly as they came. We had run through them, and left them behind. Katie and I grinned at each other sheepishly and made up our quarrel.

...
One must take care never to pronounce the name of Shaitan [Satan] and must avoid the use of any words or syllables, whether in English, French or Arabic, which could, by any chance, be mistaken for that word--such Arabic words, for instance, as khaitan [thread] and shait [arrow].

One must neither wear nor exhibit any article of clothing that was blue--no necktie of blue, for instance, no ring with a blue stone in it--for blue is taboo and anathema among the Yezidees, because it is supposed to have magical properties inimical to Satan. Blue amulets and charms, particularly blue beads, are worn universally among the Moslems as a protection against devils and to ward off the evil eye. All babies of Arabia have a necklace or collar of blue beads, and I have even seen a woman, in a bazaar at Baghdad, with a string of blue beads on her Singer sewing-machine, to prevent demons from breaking or tangling the thread. Blue, therefore, was a color accursed among the Yezidees, who worshiped the Arch-Demon.

A third prohibition was that one must take care never to spit in fire or to put out a dropped match by stepping on it with the foot, for to them all fire is sacred.

Since they were confessedly worshipers of Satan, I asked Mechmed Hamdi why was it forbidden to pronounce his name.

It was prohibited in their scripture, their Khitab al Aswad [Black Book], he said, of which he himself had studied the copy of a partial translation made from Kurdish into Arabic more than a hundred years before by one of their own priests in the Sinjar. In the Black Book, Shaitan says:

Speak not my name nor mention my attributes, lest ye be guilty, for ye have no true knowledge thereof; but honor my symbol and image.

The basis of the Yezidee belief, as Mechmed Hamdi outlined it to me, was briefly this:

God created seven spirits "as a man lighteth one lamp after another," and the first of these spirits was Satan, whom God made supreme ruler of the earth for a period of ten thousand years.  And because Satan was supreme master of the earth, those who dwelt on it could prosper only by doing him homage and worshiping him.

Since the true name was forbidden, Mechmed Hamdi told me, they referred to Shaitan as Melek Taos [Angel Peacock] and worshiped him in the form of a brass bird.

I asked Mechmed whether he had ever seen this bird, and he said absolutely no, and that he knew of no man not a Yezidee who had ever seen it, but that it supposed to be rudely carved, more like a rooster than a peacock, mounted on a brass pole, of such size as one man might easily carry.

While the name of Shaitan was forbidden, he said--so much so that if a Yezidee hears it spoken, their law commands him either to kill the man who uttered it or kill himself--yet we could talk as freely with them about Melek Taos "as we could to a Christian about Jesus."

[end of excerpts]

Iliowizi puts Irem northeast of Yemen and north of Oman apparently. I think tradition has it in the Empty Quarter on the Arabian Peninsula. Black basalt needles seem to mark its approaches. I might have more to say about it later, if I can remember and find some sources. It has to do with a pre-Islamic and pre-Sumerian civilization in Arabia if I remember it right.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 02:04:21 PM by old book » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2011, 10:27:12 AM »

Good Lord, OldBook! I just said I didn't like the story! Wink

Bob
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« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2011, 10:30:43 AM »

Yes, it was too much information, looking for a home Smiley
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« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2011, 01:56:18 PM »

Oops, I should've known, there's already a wikipedia article about the real Irem. With photos. I'm gonna paste it in, in case it disappears from there.


The ruins of the Ubarite oasis and its collapsed well-spring

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iram_of_the_Pillars

Iram of the Pillars

Iram of the Pillars (Arabic: Huh? Huh HuhHuh, Iram ??t al-`im?d), also called Aram, Iram, Irum, Irem, Erum, Wabar, Ubar or the City of a Thousand Pillars, is a lost city (or region surrounding the lost city) on the Arabian Peninsula.

Introduction
-------------
Ubar, a name of a region or a name of a people, was mentioned in ancient records, and was spoken of in folk tales as a trading center of the Rub' al Khali desert in the southern part of the Arabian peninsula. It is estimated that it lasted from about 3000 BC to the 1st century AD. According to legends, it became fabulously wealthy from trade between the coastal regions and the population centers of the Arabic peninsula and Europe. The region became lost to modern history, and was thought to be only a figment of mythical tales. Some confusion exists about the word "Ubar". In classical texts and Arabic historical sources, Ubar refers to a region and a group of people, not to a specific town. Ptolemy's 2nd century map of the area shows "Iobaritae". It was only the late Medieval version of The One Thousand and One Nights, in the fourteenth or 15th century, that romanticized Ubar and turned it into a city, rather than a region or a people.

The Qur'an (1,400 years ago) mentions a certain city by the name of Iram (a city of pillars) [Qur'an: The Dawn 89:7], which was not known in ancient history and which was non-existent as far as historians were concerned. The December 1978 edition of the National Geographic Magazine records that in 1973, the city of Ebla was excavated in Syria. The city was discovered to be 4,300 years old. Researchers found in the library of Ebla a record of all of the cities with which Ebla had done business. On the list was the specific name of the city of "Iram" (and not the name of the general region of Ubar). The people of Ebla had apparently done business with the people of "Iram". 1

The Qur'an mentions Iram alongside 'Ad and Thamud: 2

The Qur'an, chapter 89 (Al-Fajr), verse 6 to 13: “6: Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with 'Aad - 7: [With] Iram - who had lofty pillars, 8: The likes of whom had never been created in the land? 9: And [with] Thamud, who carved out the rocks in the valley? 10: And [with] Pharaoh, owner of the stakes? - 11: [All of] whom oppressed within the lands 12: And increased therein the corruption. 13: So your Lord poured upon them a scourge of punishment.”

According to Islamic beliefs, King Shaddad defied the warnings of the prophet Hud and God smote the city, driving it into the sands, never to be seen again. The ruins of the city lie buried somewhere in the sands of the Rub' al-Khali. Iram became known to Western literature with the translation of The Book of One Thousand and One Nights.

Arabic tradition holds that the tribe of 'Ad were the great-grandchildren of Nuh or Noah. The Qur'an talks about 'Ad as “successors” after Noah's people (The Qur'an, chapter 7 (Al-A'raf), verse 69).

In the 2nd century AD Ptolemy made a map that labeled the region with the name "Iobaritae", meaning that it belonged to the Ubarites. Later legends referred to the fabulous wealth of the lost city and used the region name "Ubar" to designate it. T. E. Lawrence showed some interest in Iram, and named it "The Atlantis of the Sands".

Evidence for Iram
------------------
Recent discoveries have brought Iram out of the realm of fable and into history.

In the early 1980s a group of researchers interested in the history of Iram used NASA remote sensing satellites, ground penetrating radar, Landsat program data and images taken from the Space Shuttle Challenger as well as SPOT data to identify old camel train routes and points where they converged. These roads were used as frankincense trade routes around 2800 BC to 100 BC.

One area in the Dhofar province of Oman was identified as a possible location for an outpost of the lost civilization. A team including adventurer Ranulph Fiennes, archaeologist Juris Zarins, filmmaker Nicholas Clapp, and lawyer George Hedges, scouted the area on several trips, and stopped at a water well called Ash Shisar. 3 Near this oasis was located a site previously identified as the 16th century Shis'r fort. Excavations uncovered an older settlement, and artifacts traded from far and wide were found. This older fort was found to have been built on top of a large limestone cavern which would have served as the water source for the fort, making it an important oasis on the trade route to Iram. As the residents of the fort consumed the water from underground, the water table fell, leaving the limestone roof and walls of the cavern dry. Without the support of the water, the cavern would have been in danger of collapse, and it seems to have done so some time between 300-500 AD, destroying the oasis and covering over the water source.

Four subsequent excavations were conducted by Dr. Juris Zarins, tracing the historical presence by the people of 'Ad, the assumed ancestral builders of Iram.

In fiction
---------
"Iram" is the lost city where the Muslim hero Thalaba was kept safe in Robert Southey's Thalaba the Destroyer (1801)

Iram, City of Lofty Pillars is a play by Khalil Gibran.

The city is alluded to in the tales of H. P. Lovecraft as being somewhere near The Nameless City. 4

In the Neil Gaiman novel American Gods a djinn working as a cab driver in New York City claims that he is originally from the city of Ubar.

James Rollins's 2004 novel Sandstorm centers on Ubar and its mysteries. In that novel, Ubar is discovered to be an underground city in a glass bubble with a lake of antimatter at the middle, which was created as the result of a metorite impact 20,000 years ago. In the story, Ubar is destroyed and becomes a massive lake known as Lake Eden.

Sean McMullen's story "The Measure of Eternity" (published in Interzone 205) is set in Ubar, describing it as the wealthiest city on earth.

"Wabar" is a major part of the plot in Josephine Tey's 1952 mystery novel The Singing Sands.

In "The Legend of the Arab Astrologer", part of Washington Irving's Tales of the Alhambra, Iram is mentioned as a marvellous magical urban Eden that appears to sleepers but disappears as soon as you exit the gates.

In Weaveworld, by Clive Barker, one of the antagonists visits the Empty Quarter and finds what is presumably the magically reanimated ruins of Iram.

"Irem" is the name of a song by the Italian band Green Man, from their album From Irem to Summerisle.

The Australian progressive metal band Alchemist recorded the song "Road To Ubar" on their 1997 album Spiritech.
In Tim Powers' novel Declare, Wabar was a city inhabited by djinni and their half-human progeny and was destroyed by a meteor strike.

The plot of the upcoming Playstation 3 video game Uncharted 3: Drake’s Deception is centered around the search of Iram by the game's protagonist, Nathan Drake. 5

References
-------------
1 "Ebla: Splendor Or An Unknown Empire" by Howard La Fay (pp. 730-759), National Geographic, December 1978
2 http://searchquran.net/quran.php?q=89:6-13&lang={$lang}
3 "The Frankincense Route Emerges From the Desert". New York Times. 1992-04-21. Retrieved 2007-12-06.
4 Mythos Tomes - The Nameless City
5 "'Uncharted' exclusive: Your first look at 2011's must-play videogame 'Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception'". EW.com. 2010-12-09. Retrieved 2010-12-09.

Further reading
--------------
Nicholas Clapp, The Road to Ubar: Finding the Atlantis of the Sands, Houghton Mifflin (1999) ISBN 0395957869.
Ranulph Fiennes, Atlantis of the Sands: The Search for the Lost City of Ubar, Bloomsbury (1992), ISBN 0747513279.
Charles R. Pellegrino, Return to Sodom & Gomorrah: Bible Stories from Archaeologists, Random House (1994), ISBN 0679400060.

External links
--------------
Lost City of Arabia, Nova On-line on the discovery of Ubar
Search for Ubar: How Remote Sensing Helped Find Lost City
Frankincense Route Emerges NYTimes 4/21/92
Entry on Irem in Dan Clore's A Necronomicon Glossary
Discovery of the Lost City of Ubar

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« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2011, 05:58:07 AM »

Oh wow. This is better than the Troy stuff! Although I am somewhat disappointed, it looks so... simple.  Undecided Just a few stone heaps here and there. I always imagined it similar to the Persepolis.

And I love how the Arabic turned into confused smileys.  Grin
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« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2011, 06:29:42 AM »



Hey Old Book, for the two LONG informative posts and interesting picture above, by the powers invested in me by me, I hereby entitle thee to the much sought, though paradoxically little-known, position of:

"Exalted Grand Poo-bah of Archive.org".

Really, thanks for the info... I don't know how you manage those detailed posts  Shocked
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« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2011, 03:45:00 PM »

Yeah, well, I didn't have anything to do last Sunday so I um came here and posted too much on every thread. That Irem stuff should have been a separate thread, but something told me not to go that far and to tuck it in wherever I could find a place.

Since then I've read TWO of Henry Iliowizi's books from archive.org, Weird Orient and In the Pale. S T Joshi thinks HP took Irem from Encyclopaedia Britannica (9th edition?) but I didn't find the needed inspiration there for him to really embrace the concept. Plus, there's stuff in In the Pale that really looks like Dunsany cum Dream-Quest with a pronounced Kabbalistic twist, so "Semitic" I don't think H would've claimed it publicly. In the Pale also has werewolves and evil eyes and stuff, and the action shifts between Russia, Tangiers and Eden, with some stopovers near Hades and with a cameo by Baron Rothschild entertaining Czar Nicholas using flat screen TVs and a remote control in caverns too large to be hewn by human hands under his estate in England. The tale of regaining Eden is full of Tetragramatons and Metatron and stuff HPL sort of inserts in tales here and there, and reads like a cross between the Dunsany tale On the Zann (Yann?) or whatever the title is and DQ/UK, but is supposedly about the Lost Ten Tribes and the earlier lost Jewish group called B'nai Moshe.

If anyone has a lazy Sunday to kill and wants to look for more connections, it's all there on archive.org for the time being, but several versions of In the Pale lack pages 332 and 333, which must signify something mystical beyond my knowing.

There is more to Irem I will look up later; I have a PDF about Islam and HPL on another hard disk that includes sources... One of them is Idries Shah's writing, I think it was his book The Sufis. The other sources are basically scarce, hard to find, although I think one is available on the internet. I'll check it out.
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« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2011, 07:34:40 PM »

Every time I try to read 'Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath' it takes FOREVER because it could seriously be half its present length and get the point across far, far better.

'Nameless City' never really seems to go anywhere, in my opinion.  Just some dude crawling about in an abandoned city, making discoveries that more or less soundly fail to even dent his sanity and then... more stuff happening aferward.  Snore.

'Ex Oblivione' just bothers me but that's more of a personal thing.

I like the idea of 'Quest of Iranon' but the writing was just too bloody repetitive for me.

That's pretty much the only ones I dislike.
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« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2011, 08:48:59 PM »

I feel a little uncomfortable here saying this, but I'm just not big on Yig  Embarrassed
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« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2011, 10:55:56 AM »

Not big on Yig!!! HA! That was great! Maybe that could be an election slogan.

I'm not big on Yig.
Vote Chtulhu 2012

Bob
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« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2011, 01:50:05 PM »

Well, I gotta say that the blatant racism in "The Street" bothered the heck out of me when I first read it, and I found "Dream Quest" long and dull.  But I think the thing HPL really sucked at was comedy.  "Old Bugs" is preachy and dumb, and there's not a single decent chuckle in "Ibid."  All-in-all, it's a good thing he stayed out of vaudeville.
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