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Author Topic: Episode 53 - The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath - Part 4  (Read 3644 times)
Padz
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« on: August 19, 2010, 12:23:09 PM »

Awesome. Thanks guys for ta(l)king us through this story. I found your comments and summaries on this story made it a lot more accessible and enjoyable than I found it whilst trying to read it. Dream-Quest is still the one story from Lovecraft that I still haven't been able to finish, I find it far to "trippy" and rambling for my tastes so I have been pleasantly surprised over how interesting I found this podcast. Great work, guys!
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2010, 05:01:07 PM »

BRAVO!

That was quite a journey!  When I read this I did enjoy it but I won't deny it was quite hard going.  Your comments over these last episodes have really helped bring the story to life and have made me appreciate it all the more.  I would also like to heartily congratulate the reader on doing such an amazing job of - I have to use the phrase again - bringing the story so vividly to life.  I really couldn't heap enough praise on the amazing work done by all concerned here.

I certainly think you guys deserve the break!

So thanks for the amazing episodes!
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MattRichardson
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2010, 08:13:44 PM »

Once again, great episode guys. I have to say though that I had an entirely different understanding of the ending from what you presented. It did not seem to me like the Great Ones returned because Carter showed up in their city. My understanding is that he never made it that far. Nyarlathotep never needed Carter to bring the Great Ones back - he was able to snatch them back to Kadath using his own power. He only told Carter all that nonsense in order to trick him into going to Azathoth. At least, that's what I got out of it. What does everyone else think?

Enjoy your time off! We'll all be anxiously awaiting the next episode!
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DMcCool
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2010, 11:01:59 AM »

Great show.

On the ending, I am siding with the "Nyarlathotep playing a trick" idea.  I think maybe Nyarly maybe realized that Carter made it this far, he could probably be a nuissance, but, for whatever reason, didn't want to smite him right then and there, so he just came up with a bugger-off snipe hunt for Carter to get him to leave.  That's assuming a bit, I know.
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2010, 01:08:51 PM »

Great episode, guys! Hell, I felt like these four episodes took a lot out of me, and I was just listening. And I like the Dream-Quest.  Go unscramble your brains. We'll be here when you get back.

As far as the story, not to cheapen it by comparing it to a dumb movie or anything, but I kept seeing flashes of 300 while listening to this.  Not really specific scenes, just that visual style, you know? The description of Nyarlathotep in particular was too much; I kept thinking of Rodrigo Santoro's Xerxes. Except instead of a super-macho Gerard Butler as protagonist, we have bookish New Englander Randolph Carter.  I imagine him in one of those old-fashioned Lovecraftian suits the whole time.
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2010, 08:36:31 PM »

@ Genus Unknown - I was kind of thinking of Jaye Davidson and James Spader "facing off" in Stargate....  Smiley

I once heard that HPL used to have nightmares as a child in which "Nightgaunts" would seize him by the stomach and fly him over giant vistas and vast grottoes!

Great work HPPODCRAFT - without your help I would never have made it thru.... 
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2010, 09:27:24 PM »

Oh yeah! I remember thinking about that when they first brought up Nightgaunts, but didn't think to mention it.  Yeah, I've heard that too. Nightgaunts came from HPL's own dreams...

He apparently had some ridiculously intense night terrors when he was a kid.
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helios1014
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2010, 10:58:09 PM »

Speaking of Night gaunts...there is a section of Fungi of Yoggoth called Night Gaunts where we first hear tell of a Shaggoth. Just realized, it might be worth it if Chad and Chris cover this as well.It is the only work of poetry that seems to be worth reading in full.
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2010, 04:20:28 AM »

Speaking of Night gaunts...there is a section of Fungi of Yoggoth called Night Gaunts where we first hear tell of a Shaggoth. Just realized, it might be worth it if Chad and Chris cover this as well. It is the only work of poetry that seems to be worth reading in full.

Oh, the Fungi From Yogurt... I love those. Should definitely be covered.
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Jake W
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2010, 07:51:18 AM »

So… the high priest in the silken mask. Any ideas anyone?
Wikipedia says it's possible (due to RC recoiling in horror) that it's Nyarly himself, but that seems a flimsy basis for that conclusion. Plenty of things exist in HPL's universe that you'd recoil from.

Is there a possible link with The King in Yellow? One of HPL's favourite references it seems - "The Thing, they whisper, wears a silken mask of yellow, whose queer folds appear to hide a face not of this earth...." (Fungi from Yuggoth)

Or with Umr at-Tawil, the avatar of Yog-Sothoth that appears as the silhouette of a man behind a strange, shimmering veil in Through the Gates of the Silver Key?




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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2010, 03:23:31 PM »

I think it's most likely that the High Priest Not to Be Described is a unique character, not meant to represent any more established "mythos" figure.  I see no need to try and make him (her? it?) correspond to Nyarlathotep, or the King in Yellow, or anyone else.
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Jake W
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2010, 05:41:30 PM »

I think it's most likely that the High Priest Not to Be Described is a unique character, not meant to represent any more established "mythos" figure.  I see no need to try and make him (her? it?) correspond to Nyarlathotep, or the King in Yellow, or anyone else.

Is that from a mythos point of view or a literary one?
I think you're right in terms of the story that the character wasn't specifically linked to anything or anyone as HPL was just trying out some ideas.
In literary terms there's a fairly clear lineage and some recurring motifs.

The nebulous quality to the unexplained, undescribed parts of HPL's work causes me frustration and delight in equal measure. Although, as a lifelong pedant, they bother me I still love the gaps and my brain enjoys playing with what they might be.
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 10:49:44 PM »

The priest not to be described first comes up in Celaphius and lovecraft does not read King in Yellow until much later. It comes up in his selected letters.
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2010, 11:13:24 PM »

I think it's most likely that the High Priest Not to Be Described is a unique character, not meant to represent any more established "mythos" figure.  I see no need to try and make him (her? it?) correspond to Nyarlathotep, or the King in Yellow, or anyone else.

Is that from a mythos point of view or a literary one?

Not sure I understand the difference.

I don't even like to think in terms of the overall mythos.  I'm not a "Cthulhu Mythos" fan, I'm a Lovecraft fan. Everything I've heard about Lovecraft and Co.'s feelings on the subject suggests that it was all a bit of an inside joke, something to make readers stop and think "wait, I've heard that name before, is that a real thing?" It seems that Lovecraft only had very vague ideas about what each god/monster was all about, and didn't mind fudging it, changing it, and making it up as he went along.  I'm not even sure, for example, that the Nyarlathotep of "The Dream-Quest" is the same entity as the Nyarlathotep mentioned in "The Haunter of the Dark," or that the creature in "Dagon" necessarily has anything to do with the Dagon-worshipers in "Shadow Over Innsmouth."
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2010, 08:45:40 AM »


Is that from a mythos point of view or a literary one?

Not sure I understand the difference.
 


Apologies, that was very unclear of me. I mean ‘mythos’ as treating the story as if it were relating actual events, and I mean ‘literary’ as treating it as fictional literature.
So, put another way, my question was – “do you feel it doesn’t matter as a part of HPL’s fictional creation or from the POV of someone living in that world?” I see from your post though that it’s the former.


 
I don't even like to think in terms of the overall mythos.  I'm not a "Cthulhu Mythos" fan, I'm a Lovecraft fan. Everything I've heard about Lovecraft and Co.'s feelings on the subject suggests that it was all a bit of an inside joke, something to make readers stop and think "wait, I've heard that name before, is that a real thing?" It seems that Lovecraft only had very vague ideas about what each god/monster was all about, and didn't mind fudging it, changing it, and making it up as he went along.  I'm not even sure, for example, that the Nyarlathotep of "The Dream-Quest" is the same entity as the Nyarlathotep mentioned in "The Haunter of the Dark," or that the creature in "Dagon" necessarily has anything to do with the Dagon-worshipers in "Shadow Over Innsmouth."

I agree that at the time of writing the idea of a mythos was probably the furthest thing from his mind. You’re probably right that the various Nyarlys aren’t the same entity and HPL was in Fudge Mode when he talked about the many other incarnations of the god.
But I suspect he unwittingly followed patterns in his own unconscious and (as is generally the case) a fairly consistent over-arcing narrative formed.
This kind of thing can be demonstrated with a party game where one guest leaves the room then returns and tries to guess what happened in a dream another guest has just described to the others, receiving only Yes/No answers. In fact there was no dream and the group are answering Yes to questions that end in letters A-M and No to questions that end N-Z. Very quickly the questioner builds a narrative formed, unintentionally and in total ignorance, out of patterns emerging from their own thought processes.
People like to believe each action they take is in response to the needs of the moment and a considered response to the challenges faced at that time, but evidence suggests our actions follow fairly predictable (once you know what to look for, and that’s the real trick) patterns.

Artists have themes they often return to until they resolve something deep down. Over time and with enough development, those recurring themes become something stronger and more established. In the case of HPL, writing about gods and having spent his childhood steeped in Classical mythology, a pantheon emerged. The fact he didn’t plan it consciously becomes almost irrelevant over time.
We can choose to avoid stringing it all together into a mythos and see each aspect or individual as unrelated, perhaps nothing more than a facet of HPL’s own subconscious. This is especially interesting when you consider the revelations by Yog-Sothoth in ‘Through the Gates of the Silver Key’ where Randolph Carter discovers he’s one of a multitude of facets of that god and that all sapient beings in Lovecraft’s universe are merely facets of the gods. One could argue that the reverse is true.

I guess it all depends on what you want out of it. I tend to look for patterns and connections in the larger narrative. I too spent my childhood reading a lot of Greek mythology and I like pantheons, so I'm predisposed to that kind of stuff.
When reading a collection of works I try to avoid false positives, but I suspect that the High Priest is just that. I think it would be easy to make a connection to Yog-Sothoth or The King In Yellow, and at a real stretch maybe even Nyarlathotep. But when it comes down to it, mysterious other-worldly men with silken veils and cryptic mannerisms are a good and highly evocative image that pops up with some regularity. Analysing where it comes from may be as pointless in relation to the story as wondering which cowboys George Lucas based Han Solo on. And in the end knowing what was going on in the author’s head doesn’t add that much to the story. And sometimes it takes something away.
I was hoping someone might know some inside info about the High Priest and we could fit in some missing pieces, however I may have to accept that this isn’t a jigsaw puzzle at all and is in fact an enormous doodle!

Hmmm…I may have just reasoned my way right out the other side of my original question!  Grin
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