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Author Topic: The 'racist Lovecraft' thread  (Read 56222 times)
Parallaxicality
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« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2010, 04:29:43 AM »

It's interesting to place Lovecraft's views against those of a genuinely progressive contemporary, like HG Wells. Even Wells chastised the British for massacring "inferior races" and praised the accomplishments of the Aryan (of course, he had a better idea of what an Aryan actually was - i.e. a Proto-Indo-European- than the Nazis did).
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« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2010, 06:06:50 AM »

Eugenics flourished in America right through the FDR presidency (well, for several terms out of his FOUR or whatever it was). It was also considered OK to lock Japanese Americans up in concentration camps in USA and Canada, but Germans were somehow above that, except for POWs, despite some really pro-Nazi German American movements, especially in Pennsylvania.

The one really racist HPL thing that sticks in my mind is his poem about um I'll just say, "the N word," which was available on wikisource.org last time I checked. N is in the title.
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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2010, 06:12:19 AM »

I mean, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned SLAVES! And they're on our money for crying out loud! Get over it people. Things were different then.
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2010, 07:36:42 AM »

Riddle me this.
Why does Roadblock from G.I. Joe have to speak in rhyme?  Is that supposed to be rap?

I liked how Scatman Crothers voiced the Autobot, "Jazz". 
Didn't like seeing him get ripped in twain in the movie though. 

Lastly... we all know Panthro was the black Thundercat. 
Ever listen to that jazzy music they play when he decides to climb aboard the Thunder-Tank and whoop some ass?  That's some Ultharian blood there lemme tellz ya.  Snarf Snarf (snicker).

What does any of this have to do with Lovecraftian racism?
Absolutely nothing.
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« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2010, 01:53:19 PM »

I mean, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned SLAVES! And they're on our money for crying out loud! Get over it people. Things were different then.

Oh come now. Slavery isn't racism, that's economics!
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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2010, 04:39:18 PM »

I'm all for judging people in the context of their era, e.g. the deadball era vs. the post WW2 modern era of baseball. Where I get uncomfortable is when attempting to determine what was the "appropriate" level of racism for any given era. Didn't Samuel Loveman burn his correspondence with Lovecraft when he later learned of his views on race? That might suggest Lovecraft was racist even by the standards of his own day. Or maybe Loveman was just way ahead of his time. I mean, even among 19th century abolitionists you run the gamut from those who just wanted the slaves off American soil to those enlightened types who saw the slaves as truly equal. But most abolitionists fell somewhere between the two poles of that spectrum. I haven't a clue where Lovecraft falls on the racist spectrum of his own day.

What I do find funny, and mildly offensive, is the notion that because his politics took on a socialist flavor late in life that that somehow denotes a softening of his racism. As if there's any political ideology that doesn't have the stain of racism in it's past.
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2010, 06:31:28 PM »

Anarchism has never had a strong racist wing, as far as I know. There have been a few aristocrat anarchists, though. I suppose Lovecraft might have been one of them, if he had been an aristocrat and an anarchist ... that would suppose that his family hadn't gone bankrupt, and that he had lived long enough to really think things through and arrive at the only correct political ideology Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2010, 03:29:01 PM »

Anarchism has never had a strong racist wing, as far as I know. There have been a few aristocrat anarchists, though. I suppose Lovecraft might have been one of them, if he had been an aristocrat and an anarchist ... that would suppose that his family hadn't gone bankrupt, and that he had lived long enough to really think things through and arrive at the only correct political ideology Smiley

I'd identify myself as an anarchist, and unfortunately, there are people who are racists who try to appropriate the "anarchist" label for themselves.  They call themselves "national anarchists/national anarchism".  the ideology comes from whats called the European new right, which is an attempt in Europe to re-brand nazism/fascism to make it more acceptable.   Usually it means mixing race hate with non-fascist ideologies (like anarchism, communism, etc).    National Anarchists claim to seek the establishment of  "völkisch autonomous village-communities, which have seceded from the state’s economy, as no-go areas for unwelcomed ethnic groups and state authorities".

In terms of the anarchist movement, no real anarchist would willingly associate themselves with any group that claimed to be "national anarchist".  Everyone sees them as the of crypto-fascists they are.

That being said, even with the "mainstream" of anarchist thought, there have been very influential thinkers who have been racist or sexist.  Mikhail Bakunin, considered by most the founder of modern anarchism, was a notorious anti-semite, especially noted when attacking Karl Marx.  Proudhon, the first to call himself an anarchist, probably was an anti-semite as well, on top of supporting the south in maintaining slavery and viewed women in a very negative light.  What's important, with these thinkers as well as lovecraft, is that the racism was a societal disease (that in allot of cases still hasn't been eradicated) and that there contribution overall is a positive rather then negitive.  
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« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2010, 02:38:25 PM »

So interesting that there are more than a couple of anarchists here.  The term gets a very bad rap but I identify more with socio-anarchism and have seen it work in several countries that lack a strong federal or centralized government.  The communities, districts and provinces are self-governing and trade with their neighbors accordingly and adopt rules and laws that are relevant to them and not alien or imposed from some other remote locale. 
Anyone here a fan of Noam Chomsky??
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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2010, 09:35:01 PM »

The Fear of the Unknown documentary touched on Lovecraft's racist/xenophobic views in both the documentary proper and the supplementary material (additional interviews).

- Stuart Gordon remarked that in spite of his distress at hearing about Lovecraft at one point expressing admiration for Adolf Hitler, but then saying (or perhaps it was Caitlin R. Kiernan) that Lovecraft was appalled when he had heard a firsthand account of the slaughter of the Jewish people from an acquaintance who visited Europe at the time, which raises the question of what Lovecraft would have thought of the second World War had he lived to see it.

- At another point, Peter Straub had made the point that Lovecraft was inherently raised by old women (his aunts), and being of a proud and puritanical background as they were, it would make sense that their own old world xenophobia would be instilled into his thinking. Kenneth Hite touches on this slightly in the episode(s) covering The Rats in the Walls when noting that the name of the cat was one Lovecraft had as a child... it wasn't the "smoking gun in the indictment" when considering that he actually had that cat 20 years prior to writing the story, and with his parents being a product of that same puritanical Mayflower stock for which that sort of name was not uncommon.
On a somewhat related sidenote... in the film version of Pink Floyd: The Wall, when Pink (Bob Geldof) is in his psychotic/semi-catatonic state watching films, a black & white British war film comes up on more than one occasion with a dog by the name of N*****.

- Caitlin R. Kiernan says of his time in New York that Lovecraft realized that "New York worked; he didn't work." The indication there being that in spite of Lovecraft's assessments of the "city being quite dead" or being veritably a cesspool of crime and what not, it was still a growing metropolis. Clearly, something about the dynamic of this particular city was working in spite of itself, and naturally this would have Lovecraft harboring some resentment. Mr. Fifer and Mr. Lackey even joke about how Lovecraft must have wondered what everyone did for jobs... meanwhile, Lovecraft himself didn't have a job. And yet, upon his return to Providence, the seemingly overt racism of his New York stories and prior to that seems to wane - speaking rather favorably of the black family living in Curwen's old home and shortening the name of the cat to Nig.

- Although Robert M. Price does note that "it's no accident" that the Cthulhu cultists are Mulattoes and Mestizos. But then again, with The Call of Cthulhu being the first story Lovecraft wrote upon his return to Providence, as well as Joshi's notes in the interview on the Podcraft that he'd perhaps worked out the story during his time in New York, it would make sense that it would still hold in so great and progressive a story.

A personal observation, which may or may not be applicable and I'm sure some more scholarly individuals would find much to discount this, but given that Lovecraft was a man of science and that some stories - like Facts Concerning the Late Arthur Jermyn and His Family and The Lurking Fear - do touch on evolution and such, I do wonder if that factors into the Cthulhu cultists at all. After all, he does write that "...their dead bodies had told their secrets in dreams to the first men, who formed a cult which had never died. This was that cult, and the prisoners said it had always existed and always would exist..."
I'm no scientist and my knowledge of the specifics of evolutionary science is very minimal, but I do seem to recall that the common belief is that the first men did stem from Africa. So my question is if the Cthulhu cultists being of mixed races is indeed a statement of racism or if it could even be taken further to indicate Lovecraft's predilection for science... naturally, if the cult is descended from the first men, they would be of mixed races (as we all are if you go back far enough, and this might also account for the waning of his earlier racist venom).

- Finally, Andrew Migliore had noted (as they have several times on the Podcraft) that despite his seemingly anti-Semitic outlook, as well as Gordon's earlier noting of his admiration for Hitler, that he still did marry Sonia H. Greene, a Ukranian Jew. Yet, she was a worldly and literary woman that caught Lovecraft's fancy at least enough for him to marry her (even if it might have been as a gentlemanly courtesy as Joshi said in the documentary). Migliore then says that Lovecraft was an individualist who favored intellect.
Similarly, in Cool Air, Dr. Muñoz "was a man of birth, cultivation, and discrimination." He's an Argentinian, which typically means in a Lovecraft story that he's a corrupt or malevolent personality... then again, he is practically a zombie, so who knows? Maybe it's the first indication of Lovecraft taking his xenophobia into less volatile territory.
The Podcraft touches on this as well when discussing his relationship with Samuel Loveman, a man more openly homosexual than the times would indicate, and yet Mr. Leman says of Lovecraft, "He hated everyone." And yet, in one of the episodes on The Case of Charles Dexter Ward, they discuss his statement on Lovecraft's understanding of the biological components that may be involved in it, which as Mr. Fifer states is "more nuanced" than expected and would indicate that Lovecraft has some insight into his own prejudices. Although I do find it interesting that the word used was "pederasty," which according to the current dictionary (perhaps not applicable to a 1920s dictionary) does pertain to sexual relations between two males especially when one of them is a minor or adolescent. Curious...

Another personal note, in one episode, Mr. Lackey and Mr. Fifer had pondered by Lovecraft's racism seems so prominent in his early works, but I think it's clear that the stories he wrote in that early period were just after an extended period of isolation after the death of his grandfather and the institutionalization of his mother. Factor in the "old women," and you have a recipe for an increasingly introverted mindset that would soften only after being forced to see the people and the world around him in a less sheltered environment.

I'd like to think that as one tracks the inconsistency of Lovecraft's racism over the chronological course of his writings, one sees that the man became more worldly as he saw more of it... even if the presentation of that world was limited to the Northeastern United States. It's clear that until the day he died, he still held some racist views, and yet it becomes far less pronounced in his later work to the point of being almost peripheral. Yes, he was a man who changed with the times as was once said on the Podcraft, but I think it had more to do with Lovecraft's gradual exposure to things outside his normal realm of thinking. If he changed with the times, it was undoubtedly because he saw the obsolescence of his earlier philosophies.

And thank goodness.

But anyway, sorry for being so long-winded. I don't think it's a matter of making excuses for the man or his racism; it's still a dreadful state of mind, but as Mr. Lackey pointed out, racism "stems more from ignorance" and as educated as Lovecraft was, it was still self-education in libraries for the most part. ANYBODY, I think, would tend to be at least a little prejudiced when growing up in a state of isolation without being encouraged to "go out and play."
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« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2011, 04:23:39 PM »

Didn't Samuel Loveman burn his correspondence with Lovecraft when he later learned of his views on race?
I thought it was because Lovecraft was such a homophobe and Loveman didn't know this until Sonia told him.
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« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2011, 01:09:43 AM »

I honestly find the whole concern over the issue of Lovecraft's "racist" views to be kind of ridiculous. I love Lovecraft Fear of the Unknown but I hate the way they harp on Lovecraft's "racist" side and make everyone comment on it over and over again. Though its not as bad as the series of reviews Seamus Cooper (Mall of Cthulhu) did for Tor.com on Lovecraft's stories where he seems to think that every other word Lovecraft wrote was racist.

Lovecraft lived and wrote mostly in the early 1920s. Pick up any history book on the 20s and you'll quickly see that everyone was a "racist." Lovecraft wasn't the only resident of New York who was concerned about the growing the number of foreigners coming into the city. This was a major flash-point issue at the time especially after the 1920 trial of Nicola Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti, two Italian immigrants who were convicted of murder, theft, and anarchy. Likewise, in 1925 the KKK staged a 40,000 man march on Washington DC. The most popular singer of the time was Al Jolson who regularly performed in black-face. Charles Lindbergh and Henry Ford, two American heroes, were notorious and out spoken anti-Semites. And other authors besides Lovecraft regularly used "racist" language and imagery. Read Robert E. Howard, Sax Rohmer, Lester Dent, Edgar Rice Burroughs, or even go back and take another look at the Sherlock Holmes stories.     

People seem to forget that stories like "Herbert West - Reanimator", "Rats in the Wall" or "The Horror at Red Hook" weren't something that Lovecraft wrote in the privacy of his own room and then locked away. No these stories were published in major fantasy magazines. They were reviewed by editors and enjoyed by fans. No one who read these stories back then had a problem with the "racist" language that Lovecraft was using because that was the culture of the time. What Lovecraft was saying in his stories was normal. But people today because of our ultra-politically correct culture constantly attack or worry about these things and act like Lovecraft was the only "racist" in the whole world circa 1920.

Also we need to ask how far we are going to take this "racist" nonsense. Are we really going to say that every time Lovecraft has a nonwhite person worshiping Cthulhu that he's being racist??? (This is largely what Cooper does) What about the Whateley family in "The Dunwich Horror." They're a bunch of white New England backwoods hicks and yet they are consorting and (quite literally) screwing around with Yog-Sothoth getting read to bring about the end of the world. What about the folks of Innsmouth who make deals with the Deep Ones. They're certainly white. In fact, as Ken Hite has pointed out on his blog its actually the non-white "savages" that Captain Marsh meets out in the Pacific who know better than to mess with the Deep Ones. What do we make of that?   

Frankly I think the whole fact that we even have a thread titled "The 'racist Lovecraft' thread" is ridiculous. I wounder how many Sherlockian websites have a "The 'racist Doyle' thread." When I talk to people about Lovecraft I never mention the fact that he was a "racist" and if they ask "Hey wasn't Lovecraft a racist?" I always look at them and say "Yeah like every other white person in the 20s."     

             
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« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2011, 05:48:52 AM »

I honestly find the whole concern over the issue of Lovecraft's "racist" views to be kind of ridiculous. I love Lovecraft Fear of the Unknown but I hate the way they harp on Lovecraft's "racist" side and make everyone comment on it over and over again. Though its not as bad as the series of reviews Seamus Cooper (Mall of Cthulhu) did for Tor.com on Lovecraft's stories where he seems to think that every other word Lovecraft wrote was racist. 

Frankly I think the whole fact that we even have a thread titled "The 'racist Lovecraft' thread" is ridiculous. I wounder how many Sherlockian websites have a "The 'racist Doyle' thread." When I talk to people about Lovecraft I never mention the fact that he was a "racist" and if they ask "Hey wasn't Lovecraft a racist?" I always look at them and say "Yeah like every other white person in the 20s."     

             

I could not agree more.  Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2011, 10:09:19 AM »

I honestly find the whole concern over the issue of Lovecraft's "racist" views to be kind of ridiculous.

My girlfriend introduced me to a song from Avenue Q called "Everyone's a Little Bit Racist." It was both hilarious and accurate.

Even our illustrious Podcraft hosts made a great short - I'm sure most of you have seen it on YouTube - about "Old Hollywood." Mr. Fifer's performance as an old H Hollywood denizen constantly being censored for his racist/sexist/un-PC remarks gets more than a few chuckles from me and everyone I've shown it to. Kudos to Mr. Fifer and Mr. Lackey for hitting the point home.

Hell, the old SNL skit with Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase spouting racial slurs at each other in a job interview would NEVER get aired on TV today.
Political correctness is a joke, but since it's there today, people have to bring up Lovecraft's racism.

It would be nice to follow the "don't talk about it and it will lose its power" philosophy.
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« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2011, 05:15:11 PM »

I honestly find the whole concern over the issue of Lovecraft's "racist" views to be kind of ridiculous. I love Lovecraft Fear of the Unknown but I hate the way they harp on Lovecraft's "racist" side and make everyone comment on it over and over again. Though its not as bad as the series of reviews Seamus Cooper (Mall of Cthulhu) did for Tor.com on Lovecraft's stories where he seems to think that every other word Lovecraft wrote was racist.

Lovecraft lived and wrote mostly in the early 1920s. Pick up any history book on the 20s and you'll quickly see that everyone was a "racist." Lovecraft wasn't the only resident of New York who was concerned about the growing the number of foreigners coming into the city. This was a major flash-point issue at the time especially after the 1920 trial of Nicola Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti, two Italian immigrants who were convicted of murder, theft, and anarchy. Likewise, in 1925 the KKK staged a 40,000 man march on Washington DC. The most popular singer of the time was Al Jolson who regularly performed in black-face. Charles Lindbergh and Henry Ford, two American heroes, were notorious and out spoken anti-Semites. And other authors besides Lovecraft regularly used "racist" language and imagery. Read Robert E. Howard, Sax Rohmer, Lester Dent, Edgar Rice Burroughs, or even go back and take another look at the Sherlock Holmes stories.     

People seem to forget that stories like "Herbert West - Reanimator", "Rats in the Wall" or "The Horror at Red Hook" weren't something that Lovecraft wrote in the privacy of his own room and then locked away. No these stories were published in major fantasy magazines. They were reviewed by editors and enjoyed by fans. No one who read these stories back then had a problem with the "racist" language that Lovecraft was using because that was the culture of the time. What Lovecraft was saying in his stories was normal. But people today because of our ultra-politically correct culture constantly attack or worry about these things and act like Lovecraft was the only "racist" in the whole world circa 1920.

Also we need to ask how far we are going to take this "racist" nonsense. Are we really going to say that every time Lovecraft has a nonwhite person worshiping Cthulhu that he's being racist??? (This is largely what Cooper does) What about the Whateley family in "The Dunwich Horror." They're a bunch of white New England backwoods hicks and yet they are consorting and (quite literally) screwing around with Yog-Sothoth getting read to bring about the end of the world. What about the folks of Innsmouth who make deals with the Deep Ones. They're certainly white. In fact, as Ken Hite has pointed out on his blog its actually the non-white "savages" that Captain Marsh meets out in the Pacific who know better than to mess with the Deep Ones. What do we make of that?   

Frankly I think the whole fact that we even have a thread titled "The 'racist Lovecraft' thread" is ridiculous. I wounder how many Sherlockian websites have a "The 'racist Doyle' thread." When I talk to people about Lovecraft I never mention the fact that he was a "racist" and if they ask "Hey wasn't Lovecraft a racist?" I always look at them and say "Yeah like every other white person in the 20s."     

             

Your post makes some VERY big claims, the biggest is that every other white person in the 20s was a racist.  Socialist Party candidate Eugene V. Debs received 913,664 popular votes (3.4%) in the 1920 presidential election, despite the fact that he was in prison at the time for advocating non-compliance with the draft in the war. This was the largest amount of popular votes ever received by a Socialist Party candidate in the United States.  The CP USA grew as it defended the Scarborough boys.  Upton Sinclair was very popular.  We had musicians like Woody Guthrie and Pete Seegar.  the 20s-30s where the start of the process of desegregation in the military.  There where plenty of Whites who weren't racist (didn't HPLs friend Loveman burn his letters from HPL because of his racism?)

What makes Lovecraft different was that his racism is thoroughly and loudly expressed, especially when it comes to stuff like "Red Hook".  As quoted from Wikipedia "While Lovecraft's racial attitude has been seen as directly influenced by the time, a reflection of the New England society he grew up in, this racism appeared stronger than the popular viewpoints held at that time. Some researchers note that his views failed to change in the face of increased scientific and social change of that time which invalidated many of his strongly held views."

What is also important that, Lovecraft began to adjust his views toward the end of his life as he began to travel more and came into contact with people of diverse ethnic backgrounds.  Looking that the podcast, going from each story chronologically, we can see it in the writing that his views may have changed.

I think we also must point out that Lovecrafts racism directly effects his ability as a writer.  Simply put, you cannot write racism elegantly, you can't write racism well.  I think that "Herbert West" is a great story, but "Six Shots by Midnight", due to the fact that it's not very written well, points are taken off.  His worst stories are his most reactionary.     

I'm not a promoter of "don't talk about it and it will lose its power".   Leaving it alone only enables things like racism to regroup and thrive within a dangerous subculture.  Rather, we need to have this talk, say "Lovecraft's racism was a moral failing on his part, as part of a social failure of the time".  Just as if this was the Holmes Literary Podcast, there should be a "the 'Conan Doyle racism' thread".  Just as Lovecrafts justification of, say, Fascist Italy was a moral failing, so what Conan Doyles justification for the Boer War (which saw the first use of civilian concentration camps by the UK).  Also, dude believed in fairies, like wtf?

To quote Edmund Vance Cooke:

"If any cause be dross and lies,
then drag it to the light;
Out in the sunshine evil dies,
but fattens on the night."
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