Episode 12 / Reading 8 - The Temple

[T. Kelly Lee]

It certainly seems to fit the description of the Atlantean temple. There are only three arguments left against the idea that the dead sailor in the Dream-Quest is the commander of the U-29, and all of them can perhaps be shrugged off as "Dreamlands logic": one, that there's no mention of any laurel-crowned youths (fairly unimportant, as the rest of the description of the city and temple match up so well with that in "The Temple"); two, that the sailor in question is not wearing a deep-sea diving suit but "the silk robes of Oriab"; and three, that the city in question isn't as deep as the Atlantis described in "The Temple," being visible from the surface, and close enough that Carter could make out details like what kind of robes the man was wearing and the fact that he had no eyes.

Good catch!!  I was thinking about going back and grabbing that same passage.  Thanks!!!  I was assuming that the Iron Prussian doesn't appear in his depth suit for the same reason that Kuranes appears as a king in robes rather than a homeless burned out tramp.  Plus there seems to be some mystery as to how people transition from our world to the dream lands. 

I think I must be something of an oddity, as I adore Kadath.  I re-read it every few years and never fail to pick up some mythos reference I had never noticed before. 

[Genus Unknown]

I'm still wary of identifying Karl Heinrich with the dead sailor. I'll admit that the location bears a startling similarity to the Atlantis (or what Heinrich thought of as Atlantis) of "The Temple," complete with dolphins, and Lovecraft could very well have intended it to be the same place, or a Dreamlands version of the same place. But there's no indication that the victim spotted by Randolph Carter is everyone's favorite war criminal. I submit the following:

On the fifth day the sailors were nervous, but the captain apologised for their fears, saying that the ship was about to pass over the weedy walls and broken columns of a sunken city too old for memory, and that when the water was clear one could see so many moving shadows in that deep place that simple folk disliked it. He admitted, moreover, that many ships had been lost in that part of the sea; having been hailed when quite close to it, but never seen again.

Clearly there's something sinister going on in that region, aside from the events of "The Temple." Assuming that the sunken city passed over by Randolph Carter is the same place, it's clear that the U-29 isn't the only victim. If ships from the Dreamlands frequently vanish in that area, and the dead sailor is wearing the clothes of a Dreamlander, then I would assume that he's meant to be a victim from one of those other ships.

[TransconaSlim]

... or HPL was fudging the scientific details, and didn't figure the average Weird Tales reader would know a lot about how submarines work.

With no intention of starting a fight, if such logic is to be used, then all of us "self-appointed HPL scholars" are out of luck - isn't half the fun nerding out with speculation and making minor details much larger in significance?

[T. Kelly Lee]

... or HPL was fudging the scientific details, and didn't figure the average Weird Tales reader would know a lot about how submarines work.

With no intention of starting a fight, if such logic is to be used, then all of us "self-appointed HPL scholars" are out of luck - isn't half the fun nerding out with speculation and making minor details much larger in significance?

Much like a Baker Street Irregular's approach to Sherlock Holmes, I prefer to play the "great game" and assume that all of HPL's writings are works of non-fiction and that it's incumbent upon us to make sense of them within the context of the universe that's given to us!

[Yojimbo]

Nazis and the occult as a fiction genre really gets going after Goodrick-Clarke writes The Occult Roots of Nazism in 1985.  That was MY first introduction to the topic in the late 80's.  It was re-released as a popular paperback in 1992 and BOOM - Hellboy is out the next year.  From that point on the Mythos and Nazis are forever linked. 

Raiders of the Lost Ark was 1981.

[T. Kelly Lee]

Nazis and the occult as a fiction genre really gets going after Goodrick-Clarke writes The Occult Roots of Nazism in 1985.  That was MY first introduction to the topic in the late 80's.  It was re-released as a popular paperback in 1992 and BOOM - Hellboy is out the next year.  From that point on the Mythos and Nazis are forever linked. 

Raiders of the Lost Ark was 1981.

Fair point.  But I think that followed more in the literary tradition of the Ark, itself.  Most people knew that Hitler had an interest in collecting occult artifacts my the late 1970's - but the real depth of the mythology behind it all hadn't quote seeped into the Zeitgeist as yet.  But certainly Raiders was a major contributor to the genre.  When Goodrick-Clarke's book game out, Nazis and the occult was suddenly EVERYWHERE! 

[old book]

Hitler and occultism was big in France, though, and it seeped through from there in Morning of the Magicians or View Over Atlantis or one of those books. There was Trevor Ravecroft's fun book Spear of Destiny in English as well, about the Spear of Longinus supposedly at the Staatsmusuem in Vienna, Austria, and supposedly seized by Hitler first thing after he rode into town following the Anschluss. Of course the museum director said he hid it and gave Hitler a display copy. Who knows. Mostly fakes all around when it comes to holy Christian relics at European churches and museums. I was surprised to find the final scenes in Raiders when the Ark melts the Nazis like wax is sort of accurate, the Ark is supposed to kill people, turn them blind and generally screw with them on a regular basis. Makes "mercy seat" sound like some kind of Hell's Angels joke. I bet it's murder on cell phones too.

[Bob Lovecraft]

There was Trevor Ravecroft's fun book Spear of Destiny in English as well, about the Spear of Longinus supposedly at the Staatsmusuem in Vienna, Austria, and supposedly seized by Hitler first thing after he rode into town following the Anschluss.

Wouldn't that seem to be a complete contradiction to the myth of the Spear? I thought it was supposed to grant victory to anyone who held it. If that is the case, then no one would ever be able to take it off of anyone by force or coercion. And if they did, then what would it even be worth to have since you would have proven the myth false in the taking of the spear?

Bob

[old book]

Sort of an open question there, Bob. Perhaps the Spear decides who bears it and thus grants victory. Or perhaps it is occasionally mislaid, so that someone picks it up by happenstance and suddenly rules the world, perhaps not even realizing it. Perhaps the tip of the spear is always cutting and as it cuts it slips through the grasp of various fool-kings like sand. In any case, I bought the DC comic with Hitler on the cover with the spear when I was a kid, with all these Golden Era DC heroes arrayed against him and his Valkyries. Apparently there is some connection in one of Wagner's operas, or perhaps it's Mozart's Parsival? Longinus himself converted to Christianity, according to the story, and was a respected figure in the Early Church. Christ's wound has been portrayed in European art as his feminization. The Gospel accounts says water and blood flowed out of the wound, perhaps some color code, red and white, royal colors in the twin lands of the united kingdom of Egypt. St. Thomas actually penetrated the wound, gaining the appelation "Doubting Thomas," and that story sets the stage for the victory of "faith," meaning belief, over "knolwedge," or the victory of the church of the downtrodden and poor manipulated by the vicar of Rome over the gnostics in the Roman area and surrounding lands from about AD 150-450. I think it's all bullshit and the spear has no power, and the spear in Vienna is a fake to boot.

[Bob Lovecraft]

I think it's all bullshit and the spear has no power, and the spear in Vienna is a fake to boot.

Well yeah, but I didn't want to come right out and say it. You know, preserve the mystery and all of that. Anyway, I've always thought the various myths of items that grant victory are intrinsically flawed, for the above-mentioned reasons. The whole idea is nothing but wish fulfillment/desperation fantasy given voice.

Anyway, "The Temple"... damn good story.

Bob

[old book]

Boys and their spears, yes.

Wouldn't you agree this is one of Lovecraft's manliest adventures, in a certain way?

[Bob Lovecraft]

Boys and their spears, yes.

Wouldn't you agree this is one of Lovecraft's manliest adventures, in a certain way?

In several, actually. And it's not doing a damn thing to rebuff the "Lovecraft was gay" rumors, either.

Bob

[Eric Lofgren]

I love this story. And I would watch the crap out of a good adaptation of The Temple.

[Bob Lovecraft]

I think the problem with this would be the inconsistancies with the submarine's actual design. No way you could make a convincing adaptation of a WWI German U-Boat with portholes and airlocks. I figure that is the only real reason this has never been tried.

Bob

[Genus Unknown]

Surely audiences would overlook that. I wouldn't have known (or cared) that the U-boat described in the story isn't accurate if it hadn't been specifically pointed out by someone who knows something about WW1 U-boats. So real U-boats didn't have portholes. Filmmakers big and small fudge bigger details than that all the time.