Episode 12 / Reading 8 - The Temple

[Bob Lovecraft]

Huh, when I think of Prussians, I think: Where the hell is Prussia? And: Aren't Prussians Germans?

Bob

[Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein]

When I think Rhineland I think of Heidelberg and Tubingen and places like that. When I think of Prussia, I think of the wannabe Prussians in pyfke Berlin latching onto points east extending to Memel. Maybe there was some political union I'm surely overlooking, but I don't equate them at all, for some reason.

You `re almost right both historically and geographically. Geographically you missed it only by a few miles. At least Heidelberg lies near the Rhine. But there was an actual political entity called the Rhineland or Rheinprovinz wich was part of Prussia. Maybe this map can clear things up
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Deutsches_Reich_1871-1918++.gif
Prussia would be all of the grey parts including the Rheinland (where also the village of Ehrenstein is situated) far west. Historically Prussia started in the Middle Ages somewhere in the eastern parts here shown as Pommern and Westpreußen but over the centuries it grew vastly until covered about two thirds of the Reich `s landmass.
So @Bob: Here was Prussia and yes, they were Germans. Most of the Germans were Prussians actually. But there was a kind of  a Prussian arrogance towards the rest of the country as well as of "original" eastern Prussians towards the inhabitants of the newly conquered provinces. And vice versa. This thing still plays a role today, a bit similar to that Yankee - Confederate thing in the USA.

[Bob Lovecraft]

Ah, ok, that makes sense. As for the Yankees and the Rebels, well, as long as you realize that the Yankees are all a bunch of carpet-baggers and fool, then you are on the right track.

Bob

[old book]

You `re almost right both historically and geographically. Geographically you missed it only by a few miles. At least Heidelberg lies near the Rhine. But there was an actual political entity called the Rhineland or Rheinprovinz wich was part of Prussia.

Yes, of course, I got the Rhineland around the Rhine River wrong. It's more towards Halle and Ulm, isn't it? Or somewhere over there. If the worm people ever such my brains, they will be very confused I guess I'm a bit of a Prussian snob myself, because I think everything west of Posen is pretend-Prussian, and REAL Prussia is East Prussia. All those palatinates and Brandenburg pretenders and Bohemian electors just wish they were as cool as Konigsberg.

Of course there overlapping claims and pretensions and national identities competing with any Prussian claim in the south lands. And Hitler was an Austrian, so it makes more sense to blame the Austrians than the Prussians

[starblazie]

Ah, ok, that makes sense. As for the Yankees and the Rebels, well, as long as you realize that the Yankees are all a bunch of carpet-baggers and fool, then you are on the right track.

Bob

At the risk of hijacking this thread, my great, great-grandfather who lived in Southern Iowa near the Iowa/Missouri border disappeared after riding off with a group of men on horseback; we think this happened in the 1870's.  The family tradition maintains that it was Jesse James and that my ancestor was likely killed by James.     Think how we must feel about you Southerners.... 

[Genus Unknown]

Jesse James was born in Missouri. I don't count that as the South. 

[Vulpine]

Ah, ok, that makes sense. As for the Yankees and the Rebels, well, as long as you realize that the Yankees are all a bunch of carpet-baggers and fool, then you are on the right track.

Bob

Hey, I don't own any carpet bags whatsoever!  (I say nothing about the other part) 

[starblazie]

Jesse James was born in Missouri. I don't count that as the South. 

From what I know of Jesse James, though born in Missouri, I think he considered himself very much a Southerner, but if you would like, I can make that Southerners and Southern sympathizers.   

[DustyTome]

There is a lot of criticism how Lovecraft doesn `t know how a submarine works and stuff, but that totally misses the point. He did not intend to write a treatise on WWI technology. To me it feels more like a Jules Verne Submarine than like a cramped tin box war vessel. But it `s still such a nasty death trap...

That's a good point, Karl, one I completely agree with. I'm a big military history buff and I had no problem suspending my disbelief for this story. I like that the sub isn't a traditional u-boat. This sub with its airlock, searchlight and viewing windows fits the weird fiction vibe of the story perfectly.

This was another pitch perfect reading by Andrew Leman. The man just has a gift for doing compelling readings of Lovecraft's work.

[Vulpine]

Personally, every time I read or hear the story I have a moment of 'What kind of sub is that?  Did they have windows?  Searchlights?'.  That lasts for a short bit, then the story grabs me and I forgot those details.  One of the reason I like HPL, even if the 'facts' of the story have issues, the story telling takes you past that.

[Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein]

Lovecraft surely is no place for correct technological details, isn `t he? I personally don `t dig all those science fiction stuff that reads like a user manual.

 This led me to think about how the temple almost predicted the nazi occultists obsession with Atlantis. 

First I wanted to say you `re overstretching it, but after some meditation (boring weekend) I think this IS a point. The Nazis didn `t invent that stuff. At least since the late 18hundrets there were tons of nutty racist "scientists" (Blavatsky, von Liebenfels, etc. pp.) that tried to link ancient Rome and Greece to older German sources and those to obscure lost civilizations such as Atlantis, Hyerborea, whatever. So these things were around and Lovecraft as an aficionado of strange books of any kind might very well have been aware of that. Once more, there could be much more, deeper levels to a "simple" Lovecraft text when you have a closer look at it.

[Bob Lovecraft]

Jesse James was born in Missouri. I don't count that as the South. 

From what I know of Jesse James, though born in Missouri, I think he considered himself very much a Southerner, but if you would like, I can make that Southerners and Southern sympathizers.   

Just to clear things up: a) No one born north of Interstate 10 is a southerner (sorry guys, but that's the rule), and b) as for Jesse James being a non-yankee, well as we say down here "Just because a cat has kittens in an oven, doesn't mean we call them biscuits."

And as for "The Temple" (wasn't that the topic here? ) I have always been bothered by the idea of the manuscript being found in a bottle on the shore of "wherever the hell it was found because I forget at the moment". If the main character took teh bottle out of the submarine with him on his final walk, and just let it go to float up to the surface and eventually be found, well the pressure would have instantly crushed it, and wham, no account of the incident. Being a scientifically-minded German, he would have realized that. So right there in the epigraph, the story gets it wrong.

Bob

[Genus Unknown]

It was a special sci-fi bottle, made out of the same kind of glass as the U-boat's porthole.

[Vulpine]

It was a message in a Klein bottle ?

[Bob Lovecraft]

It was a message in a Klein bottle ?

Nope. If it were, no one would have been able to get it out. Or is that get it in?

Bob