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Author Topic: Episode 12 / Reading 8 - The Temple  (Read 4082 times)
TransconaSlim
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« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2012, 02:52:06 PM »

It was a message in a Klein bottle ?

Nope. If it were, no one would have been able to get it out. Or is that get it in?

Bob

the same hoodoo that was allowing the dolphins stay underwater longer then possible allowed the bottle to float to the top without crushing as a warning to others not to be militaristic dicks lest you incur the wrath of fair-headed idols.  Fixed.
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« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2012, 03:27:00 PM »

Very slick, Slim.

Bob
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T. Kelly Lee
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« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2012, 11:05:50 AM »

Love the Iron Sky guys, especially the bird crap on the Iron Eagle. They are currently filming here in Australia amidst the tropical downpours of Brisbane.

Does anyone know if a Cthulhu story (post HPL) had used the Nazi's fascination with insane mysticism, the Ahnenerbe organization. and the Black Sun group etc?


I don't think Derleth did and my guess is that the Nazi love of the occult wouldn't have been known to the early Lovecraftians.  Morning of the Magicians in 1960 was the first book to introduce the idea into the popular mindset - and some skeptics have argued that IT was based on HPL's writings!!  Wheatley, I believe, was the first horror writer to get in on things with "They Used Dark Forces" sometime in the early 60's.  I read it ages ago, but my memory is that it must be based on Morning of the Magicians like a lot of subsequent entries into the genre. 

Nazis and the occult as a fiction genre really gets going after Goodrick-Clarke writes The Occult Roots of Nazism in 1985.  That was MY first introduction to the topic in the late 80's.  It was re-released as a popular paperback in 1992 and BOOM - Hellboy is out the next year.  From that point on the Mythos and Nazis are forever linked. 
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« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2012, 11:47:06 AM »

It was a message in a Klein bottle ?

Nope. If it were, no one would have been able to get it out. Or is that get it in?

Bob

the same hoodoo that was allowing the dolphins stay underwater longer then possible allowed the bottle to float to the top without crushing as a warning to others not to be militaristic dicks lest you incur the wrath of fair-headed idols.  Fixed.

Might have to apply that to the sub as well.  I think the crush depth for the early submarines were pretty laughable compared to what they can do now. 
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« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2012, 12:19:59 PM »

 I just wanted to say thank you to all involved, and a great reading by Mr. Leman.

 Smiley Smiley Smiley
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TransconaSlim
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« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2012, 01:35:37 PM »

It was a message in a Klein bottle ?

Nope. If it were, no one would have been able to get it out. Or is that get it in?

Bob

the same hoodoo that was allowing the dolphins stay underwater longer then possible allowed the bottle to float to the top without crushing as a warning to others not to be militaristic dicks lest you incur the wrath of fair-headed idols.  Fixed.

Might have to apply that to the sub as well.  I think the crush depth for the early submarines were pretty laughable compared to what they can do now. 

The tested crush depth for a WWII German Type VII submarine was 230 m (750 ft) with a calculated crush depth: 250–295 m (820–968 ft) (according to Wikipedia, which is never wrong).   

In the Northern Atlantic Ocean, The average depth of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge to the crest (top) of the ridge is 2500 m. Lieutenant-Commander Karl Heinrich estimated that the U-29 landed N. Latitude 20°, W. Longitude 35°, which is 672 NM (1244 KM) from Cape Verde.

I actually hypothesize that the U-29 grounded in Cape Verde Basin, 21° 09?N, 28° 02?W.  The Basin is submarine depression in the Atlantic Ocean that rises to meet the submerged Mid-Atlantic Ocean Ridge (thus in the story, the ridge being the rocky wall).  In the Cape Verde Basin, the average depth is more than 23,600 feet (7,200 m) below sea level.  Interesting: while the greater part of the Atlantic Ocean floor is covered by oceanic oozes, in the Cape Verde Basin the ooze is replaced by red clay (perfect for locating a city). 

Other then placing the U-29 may have grounded, yes, the U-29 would have hit crush depth far before ever touching down.  There was something more supernatural going on... 
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« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2012, 01:39:45 PM »

... or HPL was fudging the scientific details, and didn't figure the average Weird Tales reader would know a lot about how submarines work.
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T. Kelly Lee
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« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2012, 01:57:12 PM »

... or HPL was fudging the scientific details, and didn't figure the average Weird Tales reader would know a lot about how submarines work.

It's possible HPL didn't know a lot.  At the time he was writing crush depth for subs was likely a pretty closely held military secret among the nations that had a military submarine program.  He does, however, admit in the story that something weird is going on as the dolphins are able to dive FAR deeper than they should have.  If we take the story at face value - then something strange is going on at that portion of the ocean.  Forget the sub, the Graf's dive suit would have crushed as well. 
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« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2012, 03:42:28 PM »

Those crafty Nazis had all sorts of tricks up their sleeves, such as slanting the plating in their armored personnel carriers and tanks to optimize thickness. They probably had some sort of vortex-physics zinc/tungsten/mica/bisimuth-lug-nuts-and-electromagnetic meshes on the sub, portholes, bottles and dolphins to relieve the pressure.

People who liked this story might be interested to hear this as well:

Mysterious Traveler 03-24-45 Death Comes To Adolf Hitler
http://archive.org/download/TheMysteriousTraveler/45-03-24066DeathComesToAdolfHitler.mp3
aka
http://ia600307.us.archive.org/35/items/TheMysteriousTraveler/45-03-24066DeathComesToAdolfHitler.mp3

slightly better cleaned-up version here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?bye8kfopfe24a7h
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« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2012, 08:33:12 AM »

Interestingly, there actually was a U-29 and it was lost at sea after being damaged in an assault.  It was lost at sea with all hands in 1915 after only one patrol. 

http://www.uboat.net/wwi/boats/index.html?boat=29

And here's a shot of the "real" Karl Heinreich, Otto Weddigen.  He looks just about the way I imagined the Iron Prussian from the story:

http://www.uboat.net/wwi/men/commanders/390.html

These WWI U-boats were terror machines...they were primitive and steampunk as hell.  Nothing like the WWII u-boats you see in movies.  To me that always adds a little extra terror to this story. 
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Bob Lovecraft
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« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2012, 09:07:21 AM »

Interestingly, there actually was a U-29 and it was lost at sea after being damaged in an assault.  It was lost at sea with all hands in 1915 after only one patrol. 

That kind of makes Karl Heinrich into even more of an ass-hat now, knowing it was only his first command on the U-29. Talk about having an over-inflated sense of self-worth. Geez, I'm kind of glad the prick was hypnotized by a sunken "dream-boat" of a god.

Bob
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« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2012, 09:31:46 AM »

I had always assumed that the eyeless figure stuck out ont he island in Kadath was our Iron Count from the Temple.  I was interested to hear that Chris and Chad sort of explored that same possibility. 

Did anyone else take that from the story? 
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Bob Lovecraft
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« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2012, 10:13:48 AM »

I never thought about that. Kind of an interesting idea, though.

Bob
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« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2012, 10:21:22 AM »

You know, I'd written up a post disputing that idea on the grounds that there isn't a sunken city or temple in that scene, but it turns out I'm wrong about that. I see now that there is, and even that it's associated with dolphins, as in "The Temple."

Quote
On the fifth day the sailors were nervous, but the captain apologised for their fears, saying that the ship was about to pass over the weedy walls and broken columns of a sunken city too old for memory, and that when the water was clear one could see so many moving shadows in that deep place that simple folk disliked it. He admitted, moreover, that many ships had been lost in that part of the sea; having been hailed when quite close to it, but never seen again.
      That night the moon was very bright, and one could see a great way down in the water. There was so little wind that the ship could not move much, and the ocean was very calm. Looking over the rail Carter saw many fathoms deep the dome of a great temple, and in front of it an avenue of unnatural sphinxes leading to what was once a public square. Dolphins sported merrily in and out of the ruins, and porpoises revelled clumsily here and there, sometimes coming to the surface and leaping clear out of the sea. As the ship drifted on a little the floor of the ocean rose in hills, and one could clearly mark the lines of ancient climbing streets and the washed-down walls of myriad little houses.
      Then the suburbs appeared, and finally a great lone building on a hill, of simpler architecture than the other structures, and in much better repair. It was dark and low and covered four sides of a square, with a tower at each corner, a paved court in the centre, and small curious round windows all over it. Probably it was of basalt, though weeds draped the greater part; and such was its lonely and impressive place on that far hill that it may have been a temple or monastery.

It certainly seems to fit the description of the Atlantean temple. There are only three arguments left against the idea that the dead sailor in the Dream-Quest is the commander of the U-29, and all of them can perhaps be shrugged off as "Dreamlands logic": one, that there's no mention of any laurel-crowned youths (fairly unimportant, as the rest of the description of the city and temple match up so well with that in "The Temple"); two, that the sailor in question is not wearing a deep-sea diving suit but "the silk robes of Oriab"; and three, that the city in question isn't as deep as the Atlantis described in "The Temple," being visible from the surface, and close enough that Carter could make out details like what kind of robes the man was wearing and the fact that he had no eyes.
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Bob Lovecraft
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« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2012, 10:31:14 AM »

Kaddath was so damn hard to read that I'm not surprised that you missed that passage. I will admit that during that part of the story, I pretty much zoned out.

Bob
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