H.P. Lovecraft Literary Podcast Forums
June 19, 2013, 06:03:43 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you encounter any unknowable eldritch forum problems, shoot Manndroid a missive at mmann(at)modsprocket(dot)com!
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 11
  Print  
Author Topic: Episodes 90 - 93; The Dreams in the Witch House  (Read 10264 times)
old book
Committed for Life
******
Posts: 1347


View Profile
« Reply #105 on: September 29, 2011, 03:21:43 PM »

I almost started a new Episode 93 - Rats in the Walls thread, but thought the better of it. Smiley

When Henneth, Sich and Chard got to the bit about the gale, I had a flash. If you consider the gale the same as the cleansing cathartic strike of lightning in other Lovecraft stories (and I guess it probably has an equalizing sense far back in various myths), then take into consideration Lovecraft was writing about Poles, and that the woman whose child was taken actually had a polonized Lithuanian surname, and considering that Poland and Lithuania were joined in a union for centuries and that some of the original immigrants to the United States of America in the 1800s weren't entirely sure if they were Polish, Lithuanian, or both, if you can take all that into consideration, then consider as well the Lithuanian myth, highly romanticized by Polish thinkers in the 19th century, of Perkunas and the Wedding Feast.

Martin Lings talks about this in the chapter Old Lithuanian Songs in Jacob Needleman's compilation called The Sword of Gnosis. E J Harrison in Lithuania, Past and Present also touches upon it (available at http://www.archive.org/details/lithuaniapastpre00harruoft ).

To put it briefly, the Moon was a male and was married to the Sun, a female, and there was perfect harmony. Then along came Venus in the guise of the Morning Star or Evening Star and tempted Moon away from Sun, so that his attentions wandered. Perkunas, the thunder god, clove Moon's face in twain as punishment, which is how the phases of the Moon came about. (see Harrison, pages 166-167)

There are also old songs about Perkunas ruining a wedding feast, I guess the Moon and Venus were about to get hitched, and when he breaks it up violently as a wild storm he strikes an ancient oak tree with a lightning bolt, which falls and bleeds green blood. (see Lings in Needleman)

Velikovsky collected old myths, such as this one, about Venus and he or von Danniken (or both, I forget) used them to give foundation to the idea that Venus is a recent arrival in the inner solar system, or that the Moon came in rather recently (I forget who argued what, but there is an idea we're on our fifth moon now, the others having fallen down creating havoc upon the Earth).

Other speculators talk about electric charges that fly through space during near misses between planet-sized bodies, during specific allignments of planets and sun and/or during pole shifts/reversals.

Electric discharge leading to restoration of equilibria is a scientific, spiritual and cosmic concept. Lovecraft uses it well, because he doesn't impose morality per se on the universe, it's nothing personal against Brown Jenkins, it is just nature and cosmos smoothing some wrinkles on their outer garment.

Venus, the Moon and the Sun have a calendrical sense which ties in with Walpurgisnacht, which is really just May Day Eve, or Roodmas in old England, and which forms one arm of the "cross" of the year, the opposite arm being Halloween, with Midsummer's Eve and Yuletide the other two arms. If May Day ushers in spring and is a fertility festival at base, then Walpurgisnacht is sort of a "last fling" for all the forces of darkness that have ruled winter. One of the enduring slurs against Jews in Europe is that they kidnap and murder children around Passover to bake matzo with their blood.

All of this is pretty obvious, but I never really connected it with Lovecraft before, so apologies if I've merely stated the obvious.

One thing I don't understand: if August Derleth thought it was such a stinker, why did he copy parts of Dreams in his Peabody Heritage? Was he re-writing it the way he thought it should have been written originally by Lovecraft, then?
Logged

We live on a placid Rhode Island and Providence Plantations of ignorance in the midst of the black seas of an infinity of dark foreigners, and it was not meant that we should voyage too far.
old book
Committed for Life
******
Posts: 1347


View Profile
« Reply #106 on: September 29, 2011, 03:46:27 PM »

I'd always assumed BJ's demise was due to the death of Keziah Mason. He fed on her blood, right? So I figure no witch, no witch-blood. He got his revenge on Gilman, and then starved for lack of supernatural sustenance.

He might have got nickel poisoning gnawing on Joe's lost crucifix.
Logged

We live on a placid Rhode Island and Providence Plantations of ignorance in the midst of the black seas of an infinity of dark foreigners, and it was not meant that we should voyage too far.
Bob Lovecraft
Committed for Life
******
Posts: 1339



View Profile
« Reply #107 on: September 29, 2011, 04:12:28 PM »

See, I always thought of the discovery of all of the various bones, both human and rodent to have been WAY too old to be in any way connected with the recent happenings of the house. That is to say the bones were, say 100 years old and the recent activity (Gilman's death et. al.) were 10 years old. That would give the appearance of a kind of temporal disassociation, with everything else. However, all of the bones HAD to be connected to everything that happened in the recent past, simply because of where they were and what had been happening in and around the house so recently. In other words, it reminded me of the viral add campaign about the "Blaire Witch Project" and how the film cases were from 3 years prior to the release, but were found in the ruins of a house several hundred years old and showed corrosion that was consistent with the houses date. So, that impression in mind, I thought of Brown Jenkins' (I refuse to call him Mr. BJ) remains were far older than the destruction of the house, again hinting at a weird displacement in time that fit in well with the rest of the time/space thing going on with the witch in the first place.

Also, pay attention to the description of Brown Jenkins' skull when they find it. It sounds much more twisted and mutated than any depiction of Brown Jenkins' face I've ever seen illustrated. Most artists interpret it as a straight human face on a rat body. But the skulls descriptions hints much more strongly, to me anyway, of a rat's skull mutating into a semi-human face, almost as if a normal rat had been housing a spirit which had partially imposed its own features on its host. Personally, I think that is MUCH creepier than a human face on a rat body.

Bob
Logged

If someone ever dares you to read the Necronomicon out loud... just say no.
Genus Unknown
Cultist
Committed for Life
*****
Posts: 1186


Spam Buster


View Profile
« Reply #108 on: September 29, 2011, 06:00:27 PM »

I'm just gonna leave this thought here, and you can do with it as you please:

"Brown Jenkin" sounds like a depraved sex act.
Logged

Bob Lovecraft
Committed for Life
******
Posts: 1339



View Profile
« Reply #109 on: September 30, 2011, 08:01:34 AM »

I'm just gonna leave this thought here, and you can do with it as you please:

"Brown Jenkin" sounds like a depraved sex act.

But I don't think i want to do anything with a "Brown Jenkins". Undecided
:::shudder:::

Bob
Logged

If someone ever dares you to read the Necronomicon out loud... just say no.
old book
Committed for Life
******
Posts: 1347


View Profile
« Reply #110 on: September 30, 2011, 01:32:09 PM »

Bob:-- do you remember that Chinese sheep born with a human face a few years back?

Now that you mention time (and let me add space) displacement, I can harbor a ahem pet theory that the Jenk actually bit Joe's nickel crucifix in the pen-penultimate scene after Gilman strangled the witch with it and it fell into the abyss, and thus died of nickel poisoning at an undisclosed time and location.

What I really wanted to believe was that the Jenk accidentally ate Joe's nickel crucifix after burrowing out of Gilman's chest cavity, and then slinked off to die slowly of nickel poisoning, but that requires the crucifix murder weapon lost in the abyss to reappear around Gilman's neck when Jenk attacked by transdimensionally nuzzling and nibbling his heart out. Which is way too much of a leap to make here. Alright, Jenk can stick his snout into Gilman's heart through a transdimensional door, but the lost crucifix reappearing in the same place at the same time is just preposterous.

There are some historic or folkloric parallels with the Brown's little feat here. There is the time-honored British or Welsh tradition of tying one's trouser legs shut below and dropping in a ferret, then tightening the belt, the object being to see how long a man can stand it. Some emerge no longer men. Then there is the story of the Spartan schoolboy and his little fox.
Logged

We live on a placid Rhode Island and Providence Plantations of ignorance in the midst of the black seas of an infinity of dark foreigners, and it was not meant that we should voyage too far.
Bob Lovecraft
Committed for Life
******
Posts: 1339



View Profile
« Reply #111 on: September 30, 2011, 02:22:54 PM »

Didn't the story say that there was an entire whole through Gilman's body? I could have sworn it did. IF so, then that is why I always thought Brown Jenkins burrowed up through the bed and Gilman's back and then out of his chest, not that he was able to jump into Gilman's body and gnaw his way out. The podcast seems to say that he got into Gilman and ate his way out. Huh?

Bob
Logged

If someone ever dares you to read the Necronomicon out loud... just say no.
Genus Unknown
Cultist
Committed for Life
*****
Posts: 1186


Spam Buster


View Profile
« Reply #112 on: September 30, 2011, 02:32:57 PM »

Yeah, I think that was just Chris misreading the story. Although I guess there's no reason Brown Jenkin couldn't have hyper-jumped his way into Gilman.
Logged

old book
Committed for Life
******
Posts: 1347


View Profile
« Reply #113 on: September 30, 2011, 02:34:13 PM »

idk Bob, things are so confused it could have been a Cat-Dog-type double Brown Jenkins in Saturday Night Fever costume.
Logged

We live on a placid Rhode Island and Providence Plantations of ignorance in the midst of the black seas of an infinity of dark foreigners, and it was not meant that we should voyage too far.
osyrisdiamond
Unhinged
***
Posts: 179


Don't Speak!


View Profile Email
« Reply #114 on: September 30, 2011, 05:49:38 PM »

I assume HPL meant BJ as described (a rat-like thing with humanoid features) but it makes me wonder if a miniature Simian with deformed rat-like size and shape would work better. I know these descriptions are referenced tentatively in the story, but more as descriptors imposed onto the rat body. I wonder if this notion bolsters the idea brought up on the podcast about BJ being somehow related to KM, perhaps a horribly deformed offspring. It is certainly more creepy to birth your own familiar than for it merely to appear; but I guess that depends on chronology. Regardless, he's a brutal terrifying little bastard.
Logged

"It is good to be a cynic... better to be a contented cat... best not to exist at all. Universal suicide is the most logical thing... we reject it only because of our primitive cowardice... If we were sensible we would seek death—the same blissful blank which we enjoyed before we existed." -HPL
Genus Unknown
Cultist
Committed for Life
*****
Posts: 1186


Spam Buster


View Profile
« Reply #115 on: September 30, 2011, 06:43:40 PM »

Any reference to Brown Jenkin being Keziah Mason's son gives me a mental image of the birth. Just a slimy rat, crawling out of...

It's not a pleasant mental image, is the point.
Logged

old book
Committed for Life
******
Posts: 1347


View Profile
« Reply #116 on: October 01, 2011, 09:12:37 AM »

osyris: sounds somehow related to Facts Concerning the Late Arthur Jermyn to me...

genus: I never understood the whole with familiar thing beyond assuming it was a survival of pre-Christian totemic animal notions. If KM was the mother, does that mean the Black Man was the father?
Logged

We live on a placid Rhode Island and Providence Plantations of ignorance in the midst of the black seas of an infinity of dark foreigners, and it was not meant that we should voyage too far.
Bob Lovecraft
Committed for Life
******
Posts: 1339



View Profile
« Reply #117 on: October 03, 2011, 09:06:46 AM »

Actually, the idea of KM having to give birth to Brown Jenkins (still not calling him Mr. BJ) would fit pretty well with American folklore aobut witches and their pacts with Satan. The idea being that they give him their virginity (or just body) to wed the devil and thus gain power. So giving birth to a demon spawn child (see the Jersey Devil) is a pretty common piece of folklore. Personally, i love the idea that Brown Jenkins was KM's daemonic offspring. I know Lovecraft never mentions it, or even really eludes to it other than the rat nursing on KM's blood, but I definitely think it adds tremendously to the story.

Bob
Logged

If someone ever dares you to read the Necronomicon out loud... just say no.
kulain
Blissfully Ignorant
*
Posts: 42


View Profile
« Reply #118 on: October 03, 2011, 02:36:52 PM »

There are some historic or folkloric parallels with the Brown's little feat here. There is the time-honored British or Welsh tradition of tying one's trouser legs shut below and dropping in a ferret, then tightening the belt, the object being to see how long a man can stand it.

TIL the man who puts ferrets down his trousers is not something that only exist in terry pratchett's discworld novels.
Logged
JulieH
Mind-Blasted
****
Posts: 479


Resident Diva, 19 Nocturne Boulevard


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #119 on: October 03, 2011, 03:57:01 PM »

There are some historic or folkloric parallels with the Brown's little feat here. There is the time-honored British or Welsh tradition of tying one's trouser legs shut below and dropping in a ferret, then tightening the belt, the object being to see how long a man can stand it.

TIL the man who puts ferrets down his trousers is not something that only exist in terry pratchett's discworld novels.

You mean Sylvester McCoy?  That's one of his infamous party tricks - along with driving nails up his nose.
Logged

--Julie Hoverson
19 Nocturne Boulevard
(www.19nocturneboulevard.com)
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 11
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!