Episodes 77 - 83 ~ At the Mountains of Madness

[old book]

I always pronounced it PEA-Body in my mind, so that's fine with me.

The Piri Reis map isn't the only one, there are maps from Europeans in the middle ages showing the coast behind the Ross Ice Shelf and supposedly even rivers from the interior. Very old maps. There is also a story Columbus had access to some of the old maps. Recently some German academics supposedly "deciphered" the old Ptolemei map and finally figured out where Thule was exactly. They also came up with a whole bunch of locations with weird names in Europe, refered to in classical sources but hitherto lost to posterity.

Graham Hancock has a very limited survey of some of the Antarctic maps that should be in Fingerprints of the Gods. He also seems to think that parts of Antarctica might have been ice free as recently as 4,000 years ago or so. It's a big place, who knows--maybe someone will stumble across a herd of flash-frozen white rhinoceroses with Nothofagus southern beech shoots still fresh in their mouths in some hidden valley. If it were partially unfrozen that recently, one could expect the random human voyager to have washed up there as well, some lost band of Maori out on what was supposed to be a three-hour cruise

[old book]

Antarctica’s landmass was not under ice in the remote past (one million years BC), and certainly it was ice free no later than the end of the last ice age (about 11,000 BC)

Actually, Antarctica has been extensively glaciated for ~45 Million Years, with continental scale glaciation well established by the Earliest Oligocene.  There's an extensive record of glacial sedimentation, including marine end-moraines plowed up by icebergs calving into the sea, that goes back around 40 million years.  We also have a huge amount of isotopic evidence from marine microfossils that show evidence for huge ice-mass effects in the Oligocene on up to today.  Sadly, the ol' Piri Reis map's "Antarctica" is just S. America being wrapped around in a kind of goofy projection.  Oh well!

But it's a vast place. As big as Europe and North America combined. I'd say the jury is still out as to whether the WHOLE THING has been frozen for the last ~70 million years, or whether bits of it warmed and cooled, thawed or maintained themselves for a time as a thermal island. I haven't come to any conclusions about the Piri Reis map, except that I know the projection is funky, like the Basque and Catalunian maps that seem to show North America. I did happen across some Canadiana on the internet the other day showing Dee's maps of NE Canada, Greenland and adjacent areas.

[Crinoid]

Graham Hancock has a very limited survey of some of the Antarctic maps that should be in Fingerprints of the Gods. He also seems to think that parts of Antarctica might have been ice free as recently as 4,000 years ago or so. It's a big place, who knows--maybe someone will stumble across a herd of flash-frozen white rhinoceroses with Nothofagus southern beech shoots still fresh in their mouths in some hidden valley. If it were partially unfrozen that recently, one could expect the random human voyager to have washed up there as well, some lost band of Maori out on what was supposed to be a three-hour cruise

I hate to be a spoilsport, but there's no real evidence for an ice-free Antarctica since the Eocene (~37 Million Years Ago).  We've got continuous ice-core that goes back 650,000 years, and lots of detailed isotopic data that show continuous, continental-scale glaciation in the Antarctic since the middle of the Cenozoic.

[old book]

Except the evidence comes from geographically limited sampling. Most of the place hasn't been carefully examined yet. So anything's possible. Look at it this way: 95% of Greenland is glaciated, and has been for a very long time, and yet there are bits here and there along the coast where people manage to live and little bushes grow.

As I understand it, part of the Ross peninsula/archipelago did sustain some sort of light forest sometime between now and the balmy Eocene. Clearly that whole system with islands stretching toward Tierra del Fuego is exceptional in terms of continental climate, but anyway. Spoil away, I'll remain agnostic in the absence of observed evidence

[Crinoid]

But it's a vast place. As big as Europe and North America combined. I'd say the jury is still out as to whether the WHOLE THING has been frozen for the last ~70 million years, or whether bits of it warmed and cooled, thawed or maintained themselves for a time as a thermal island. I haven't come to any conclusions about the Piri Reis map, except that I know the projection is funky, like the Basque and Catalunian maps that seem to show North America. I did happen across some Canadiana on the internet the other day showing Dee's maps of NE Canada, Greenland and adjacent areas.

Antarctica wasn't under ice until ~40 million years ago...we've got shit tons of coal and a pretty good record of Dinosaurs from the Cretaceous, and a bunch of reptiles from the earliest Cenozoic.  But by the latest Eocene, we KNOW that major icesheets had been established.  That's not to say that there aren't little zones in the Transantarctic highlands that are ice-free; I have some colleagues who are working on ice-dominated soil formation processes in some of the ice-free valleys in the interior of Antarctica.  What is for sure, however, is that the coastal regions have been ice-locked since the middle of the Eocene, with a few exceptions here and there during the Oligocene and the Pliocene.  But by the ~1 Million years ago, the ice pack we see today was pretty much fully established.

Also, Antarctica is only about half as big as N. America (Antarctica ~14 million km square, north america is ~28 million km square).

[Crinoid]

Except the evidence comes from geographically limited sampling. Most of the place hasn't been carefully examined yet. So anything's possible. Look at it this way: 95% of Greenland is glaciated, and has been for a very long time, and yet there are bits here and there along the coast where people manage to live and little bushes grow.

As I understand it, part of the Ross peninsula/archipelago did sustain some sort of light forest sometime between now and the balmy Eocene. Clearly that whole system with islands stretching toward Tierra del Fuego is exceptional in terms of continental climate, but anyway. Spoil away, I'll remain agnostic in the absence of observed evidence

We actually have better data coverage of the Antarctic than you seem to think we do.  We've had ~50 years of ocean drilling project/Deep sea drilling project exploration in the circum-Antarctic seaway, with cores taken than span from the Recent back into the Cretaceous (~70 million years total).  And, like I said, Antarctica was pretty nice, up until the Eocene (which spanned 55 million years to 37 million years ago).  But, since then, ALL the joint geological/geochemical investigations we've done have demonstrated conclusively that the region has been under ice continuously since then. 

And, of course, the younger we get in the record (i.e., the closer we get to today), our data gets even better.  For the past 650,000 years, we have DIRECT evidence from gas bubbles in ice cores, as well as extensive isotopic data from marine organisms in the region, for EXPANDED ice sheets at the last glacial maximum ~20,000 years ago.

[paraman52]

This is my favorite HPL story, because it lays out the entire Mythos, and man's role in it (which isn't much). It answers all the questions.

[dadavoodoo]

Chad and Chris said why has every one read The Necronomicon? Well go here and see why....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnbYcB9ctu8&feature=related

[kulain]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyd7U_p3mEc&feature=related

hilarious ending

[Genus Unknown]

Chad and Chris said why has every one read The Necronomicon? Well go here and see why....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnbYcB9ctu8&feature=related

Funny videos aside, let's remember that when HPL was writing these stories, the Necronomicon wasn't... well, the Necronomicon. It wasn't a famous book, and it wasn't necessarily a reference he intended people to get. Lovecraft was a relative unknown, and there wouldn't have been many people following his career in chronological order, piecing together the world he was building.

For the majority of readers of [any given Lovecraft story], this would have been the first time they'd ever heard of the Necronomicon. In the case of AtMoM, he had to include it just to give the later craziness some tiny semblance of context. Yes, it's a little odd for a geologist to read occult texts, but it's also established that he's a fan of fantastical literature such as Poe. And without establishing some kind of mythological authority early on, the average pulp magazine reader would have been as put off by AtMoM as many of us are by the Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath.

[old book]

First, my mistake: Antarctica is about the size of the USA and Europe combined, not North America and Europe.

Except the evidence comes from geographically limited sampling. Most of the place hasn't been carefully examined yet. So anything's possible. Look at it this way: 95% of Greenland is glaciated, and has been for a very long time, and yet there are bits here and there along the coast where people manage to live and little bushes grow.

As I understand it, part of the Ross peninsula/archipelago did sustain some sort of light forest sometime between now and the balmy Eocene. Clearly that whole system with islands stretching toward Tierra del Fuego is exceptional in terms of continental climate, but anyway. Spoil away, I'll remain agnostic in the absence of observed evidence

We actually have better data coverage of the Antarctic than you seem to think we do.  We've had ~50 years of ocean drilling project/Deep sea drilling project exploration in the circum-Antarctic seaway, with cores taken than span from the Recent back into the Cretaceous (~70 million years total).  And, like I said, Antarctica was pretty nice, up until the Eocene (which spanned 55 million years to 37 million years ago).  But, since then, ALL the joint geological/geochemical investigations we've done have demonstrated conclusively that the region has been under ice continuously since then. 

And, of course, the younger we get in the record (i.e., the closer we get to today), our data gets even better.  For the past 650,000 years, we have DIRECT evidence from gas bubbles in ice cores, as well as extensive isotopic data from marine organisms in the region, for EXPANDED ice sheets at the last glacial maximum ~20,000 years ago.

Perhaps you're right about the abundance of evidence, I haven't followed the ice core drilling distribution closely. I'm aware of the problem of gas migration in early ice cores. The problem as I see it is that I doubt all the coasts of Antarctica have been surveyed yet. They can't have been, since many of them are so inaccessible now. Perhaps I am not up to date on what has been recently.

I don't think "the sicence is settled" even regarding carbon-14 isotope rations for marine organisms in the region. I think at best we have a general notion that it was very icy most of the time for the last ~10,000 years. As I understood marine diversity on the Antarctic continental shelf, it seems to indicate a much warmer climate for a long period of natural history in the region. These words are vague at best, long, most, warmer, seems.

The Dry Valleys are certainly interesting and deserve deeper study.

[theuglyamerican]

First post here!  Woohoo!

One thing I'll point out is that the landing at Mts. Erebus and Terror was not accidental.  The Erebus and Terror were the ships of the Franklin Expedition (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin%27s_lost_expedition for a good overview), which was (and remains, especially in Canada) an infamous journey.  By giving those two names, Lovecraft was deliberately foreshadowing the mystery and disappearances that would follow, something his intended audience would have caught on to immediately. 

Sorry if this is bleeding obvious or has been pointed out before. 

[Crinoid]

First post here!  Woohoo!

One thing I'll point out is that the landing at Mts. Erebus and Terror was not accidental.  The Erebus and Terror were the ships of the Franklin Expedition (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin%27s_lost_expedition for a good overview), which was (and remains, especially in Canada) an infamous journey.  By giving those two names, Lovecraft was deliberately foreshadowing the mystery and disappearances that would follow, something his intended audience would have caught on to immediately. 

Sorry if this is bleeding obvious or has been pointed out before. 

AND before the Franklin Arctic expedition, The HMS Erebus and HMS Terror were the ships sent on the Ross Expedition to the Antarctic (in the early 1840's)...and Ross named the two volcanos for his two ships (the Terror was, I believe, also the ship that Hooker, a friend of Darwin and future director of the Kew Gardens, served on as naturalist).  After the Antarctic expedition, the two ships were refitted for the Franklin expedition.

[theuglyamerican]

AND before the Franklin Arctic expedition, The HMS Erebus and HMS Terror were the ships sent on the Ross Expedition to the Antarctic (in the early 1840's)...and Ross named the two volcanos for his two ships (the Terror was, I believe, also the ship that Hooker, a friend of Darwin and future director of the Kew Gardens, served on as naturalist).  After the Antarctic expedition, the two ships were refitted for the Franklin expedition.

This is just another example of the multiple layers of texture that Lovecraft put into this story, more than any of his others (IMO).  For me this is the story that ties everything together in his Mythos, and even if it isn't my favorite, it's still the one I respect the most as an achievement. 

[Crinoid]

And, just to point out more rad geological-goodness...today, there's an awesome volcano observatory/seismic array (run by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Tech) at Mt. Erebus that's produced a lot of really cool data.  I think Ross Island, and all the volcanic activity set amid the icy antarctic landscape, has always fascinated folks, from the mid 1800's on. 

There's a really awesome Herzog documentary, Encounters at the End of the World that explores the scientific community at McMurdo, and visits Erebus and the vulcanologists working there.  Worth checking out!