Episodes 77 - 83 ~ At the Mountains of Madness

[semiosteve]

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Gods, I hope so.
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Strangely enough I am reading Jeff Vandermeer's Ambergris books and the whole honey badger things and ATMOM reminds me somehow of the underground world beneath the city of Ambergris in those books.

If you ever wondered what happens to someone's thinking if they wandered too long where Shoggoths dwell read these books.

Think of it this way, imagine a city built on top of the the lowest sections of what was found in ATMOM (and all the other HPL tunnels, caverns and caves.). That's Ambergris.

steve

[Phil]

regarding the expressions of the elder things and cats, i sort of imagine they are drawn in the murals manga style like with sweat drops and wobbly eye stalks which properly conveys their feelings on their star shaped "face", like a pokemon.

Anthro Pornus, I choose you! 

....wait is this the right thread.....sorry... 

[semiosteve]

Probably not the right thread - unless one has read Vandermeer. To my mind he is closer to HPL than his purported successor Thomas Ligotti.

There are broad streams flowing from HPL's work

1.) stories which stay close to the canon as well as often the locales, character types and styles of the original work

2.) stories that explore similar underlying concerns but in modern styles, locales and literary approaches

Most of the recent volumes of Lovecraft inspired collections tend to me of the first type. Vandermeer's work is of the 2nd type and yet his Ambergris series feel directly connected to ATMOM and Color out of Space.

Went out to do some yard work this weekend after being out of town - you would not believe all the strange mushrooms everywhere from all the rain.


sv

[PresidentManningsPeriwig]

Another awesome episode guys! Fantastic Work!

As to the discussion in the middle of the episode concerning Dyer’s revelation that the Elder Things were “men” I have to say that I think Chad is more on the mark than Ian.

Ignoring the final revelation of ultimate horror glimpsed beyond the mountains at the very end, the pinnacle of terror in the story is clearly the Shoggoth. When Dyer comes to identify with the Elder Things, they cease to become terrible in any real sense. Shoggoth, on the other hand, are clearly viewed as a sub-species by the Elder Things, and if we, as Dyer, equate the Elder Things with humans, then we are forced to draw parallels with ethnic minorities, which Lovecraft pretty clearly viewed as nearly, if not actually, sub-human (there is almost no doubt that he viewed them as biologically inferior.)

The terror that Dyer and Danforth experience while fleeing the Shoggoth is that of mortal peril, but considering the historical focus of the story, the implied horror of the Shoggoth almost has to be through their role as an agent of social destruction. They are the mindless, brutish, uncivilized horde that rose up and destroyed a ‘perfect’ (in Lovecraft’s mind) society. That the Elder Things are in some way ultimately responsible for their own destruction seems only to serve as Lovecraft’s cautionary tale to the ‘cream’ of society, and does not in any way exonerate, justify or even attempt to understand the actions of the Shoggoths. As it stands, however, the Shoggoth uprising is seen only in terms of a failing by the Elder Things. That, to me, mirror’s Lovecraft’s ultimate failing, his unwillingness to attempt to understand the people he saw as lesser.

I adore HPL, I am probably un-healthily obsessed with him, but I think it’s only responsible of us as fans to call it like we see it and accept the fact that he had flaws. I think using AtMoM as evidence of racial maturity on Lovecraft’s part is trying too hard to apologize for him. Yes, in the story Dyer comes to identify with a race vastly PHYSICALLY different than his own, but this revelation comes from the knowledge that they were ultimately very similar to man in terms of aesthetic. Saying this story demonstrates maturity ignores the notion that the true “monsters” in the story are uneducated, uncultured parallels of people of a low socio-economic class, just as AtMoM itself ignores even the possibility that the Shoggoth could be justified in their revolt.

[Eric Lofgren]

Great thoughts, PMW! And another excellent episode. Over far too quickly

I wonder, though, if it's possible to suggest that when Dyer equates us with the Elder Things, Lovercraft could just as easily be suggesting that the real horror is the revelation that we are TOO much like the Elder Things. As if in a moment of enlightenment, Dyer saw US in place of the Elder Things written on the walls all around him. That humanity had taken far too many cues from the habits of the Elder Things and that their actions were all too eerily familiar. Where in actuality, we are more akin to the Shoggoths in make up whereby we share a similar creation.  

On a curious (re: ironic) side note, as I was writing the above some Jehovah's Witnesses interrupted me as I was typing. After they handed out their periodicals I should have showed them this thread

I agree about the 'apologizing' for Lovecraft's views, mind you. He may have been a product of his time in his opinions on race and culture but that doesn't mean it's the least bit acceptable.

 

[Robert R.]

Yeah, I'm closer to Chad's take as well. It's a step for Lovecraft, but it's only a little one.

I missed the notes on the publication history on At the Mountains of Madness, who Lovecraft sold it too, how much he received, his reaction, etc. There are some interesting twists and turns to that portion of its history.

[kulain]

hum usually I would agree with Chad, being a huge fan of shoggoths in general, but I think I.N.J. have a point. While I am not disputing Lovecraft is a raging racist and what have you, I think in this case, shoggoths are not really comparable. They were created by the elder things, something akin to the robots Chad mentioned, an artificial intelligence. Like cows, horses, and computers in our time. They are "beasts of burden", the elder things used them just like we use our animals to plow field and carry heavy stuff.  While we obviously condem slavery of fellow humans, our current society is not really saying much on "enslaving" or "domesticating" all our pet animals and labor animals, which is what the elder things are doing with their shoggoth, and we didn't even create the animals we are enslaving in the first place like they did.  So overall, I don't think it is fair to say that Lovecraft is beyond redemption in his "racist" stance, more like a "speciest" stance.

What truly horrifies Lovecraft is a monkey in a fez imitating human behavior just like the shoggoths imitates the elder things. The abomination for him is in that the mindless shoggoth do not know what they are doing and is merely blindly imitating what their superiors have done without comprehending the artistic merit, just like an animal performing a learned trick without knowing the human intention or "intelligence". That is my take on the story.

Overall, this is really HPL's warning to us not to let Jurassic Park happen. (O.o)

[Lambda]

I wonder, though, if it's possible to suggest that when Dyer equates us with the Elder Things, Lovercraft could just as easily be suggesting that the real horror is the revelation that we are TOO much like the Elder Things. As if in a moment of enlightenment, Dyer saw US in place of the Elder Things written on the walls all around him. That humanity had taken far too many cues from the habits of the Elder Things and that their actions were all too eerily familiar. Where in actuality, we are more akin to the Shoggoths in make up whereby we share a similar creation.  

As I noted on my blog, this might also be a warning to some degree. Ultimately, the Elder Things were destroyed not so much by the uneducated, uncivilized nautical-looking negroes slave race, but by their own creation. Not only are they in some way responsible for their own demise, their downfall was caused by the things they created. Maybe we can take this as a way of saying "be careful with what you create, it could bite you in the posterior part!" Or, if you want, "do not raise up any that you cannot put down". At the time this story was written, we still had some white parts on the maps, but the whole Newton physics implied that the human race could understand and subsequently conquer the universe. I think Lovecraft realized that this was hubris (as now evident because of Einsteinian physics). And I think he also wanted to give us a hint that if we're not careful with what we create, some unwitting explorer might find our ruins and what we left behind... and learn of our own downfall.

[Mike J.]

This last chunk raises a few intriguing questions:

1) What the hell did Danforth see? Was it ever supposed to be a specific thing, or was it just HPL throwing a bunch of scary, unrelated stuff out there and letting the readers' imaginations run wild? I have wild speculations of my own.

2) The shoggoth wrote something on the wall? Or was it a dying Elder Thing? What (if anything) might it have been meant to say? Or was it just put there because it seemed creepy? I have speculations. Speculate amongst yourselves!

3) What does "tekelili" mean? Was it ever supposed to mean something, or was it just supposed to be spooky? Is it really implied that the Elder Things spoke that 'word' as part of their language and the shoggoths learned it by its frequent use? If that is assumed, then some fun speculation of its meaning may be in order.

As an aside, I was watching a documentary about the Antarctic, and it showed some "brittle stars" crawling around on the ocean floor: truly spooky locomotion. I imagine this is how the Elder Things might have moved; with their pads-on-the-ends-of-arms.

Thanks for the show, guys


-Mike J.

[MAS]

As I drove to work today, listening to part 7 of the current podcast, I came across some roadworks.
The company that was orchestrating proceedings, I have since learnt, are called 'Advanced Traffic Management' and as a result the road was lined with fluorescent orange cones branded with the black letters, ATM.

I kept craning my neck to look around the cones, baffled as to where the "oM" letters, to spell ATMoM, had disappeared.
My sanity is less than proficient early in the morning but could this be a sign of too much Lovecraft

[vortexgods]

You know, I imagine that if the Elder Thing civilization hadn't been destroyed by the shoggoths, they probably would eventually find the humans irritating enough to need to eliminate them.

In fact, if not for the shoggoth uprising, if the shoggoths and elder things were working together, I doubt human civilization would ever have existed.

Dyer's sympathies are, perhaps, misplaced...

Oh, and on another topic related to At the Mountains of Madness:

"Why in the name of science fiction did you ever print such a story as 'At the Mountains of Madness' by Lovecraft? Are you in such dire straits that you must print this kind of drivel?... If such stories as this -- of two people scaring themselves half to death by looking at the carvings in some ancient ruins, and being chased by something that even the author can't describe, and full of mutterings about nameless horrors, such as windowless solids with five dimensions, Yog-Sothoth, etc. -- are what is to constitute the future yarns of Astounding Stories, then heaven help the cause of science-fiction."  -- Letters Column, Astounding Stories, June 1936 as quoted in the introduction to Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos by H.P. Lovecraft and Divers Hands.

That seems unduly harsh to me, seems like some science fiction fans didn't like moving out of their comfort zone in those days.

[yumegari]

...
3) What does "tekelili" mean? Was it ever supposed to mean something, or was it just supposed to be spooky? Is it really implied that the Elder Things spoke that 'word' as part of their language and the shoggoths learned it by its frequent use? If that is assumed, then some fun speculation of its meaning may be in order.
...

HPL was never able to concretely say.  I read somewhere that HE got 'tekeli-li' from Poe, who only ever described it as the cry of some strange bird.

On a related note, I also found 'tekeli-li' to be an odd sound for a monster to make, but chalked it up to an attempt at massive cognitive dissonance.  Then I watched the Lovecraftian anime Demonbane, in which a character had a pet shoggoth who occasionally said 'tekke-ri-ri' in a tiny little voice.  I haven't been able to take shoggoths seriously since.  o.O

[kulain]

1) What the hell did Danforth see? Was it ever supposed to be a specific thing, or was it just HPL throwing a bunch of scary, unrelated stuff out there and letting the readers' imaginations run wild? I have wild speculations of my own.

I think in a previous episode Chris and Chad mentioned that they think it is unknown Kaddath in the frozen waste, where Nyarl and Azathoth are.

“the black pit”, “the carven rim”, “the proto-shoggoths”, “the primal white jelly”, “the original, the eternal, the undying” - I believe this was a hole where the white proto shoggoth ubbo-sathla lives.

“the windowless solids with five dimensions”, “the nameless cylinder” - space ship

“the elder pharos”, “Yog-Sothoth”,  “the colour out of space” - more sparkly things

“the wings” - polyps

“the moon-ladder” - what cats use

In sum, Nyarl and Azatoth are having a party and the Lovecraft pantheon was invited. Danforth glimpsed their crazy outdoor BBQ and goes insane.

2) The shoggoth wrote something on the wall? Or was it a dying Elder Thing? What (if anything) might it have been meant to say? Or was it just put there because it seemed creepy? I have speculations. Speculate amongst yourselves!

"I know what you did last summer!" - which scared the elder thing that came back with the box of cookies.

I believe a shoggoth wrote this because it sparkles like a vampire.

3) What does "tekelili" mean? Was it ever supposed to mean something, or was it just supposed to be spooky? Is it really implied that the Elder Things spoke that 'word' as part of their language and the shoggoths learned it by its frequent use? If that is assumed, then some fun speculation of its meaning may be in order.

I always thought this meant something like "holy shit! run away!" or "wtf! wtf!", or used in kind of like a warding way such as "god have mercy on our souls" or making the elder sign.

The "tekeli-li" cry comes from Poe's Arthur Gordon Pym which has been mentioned many times in ATMoM as well as any literature having to do with antarctica it seems (I just read about it as well in Ice Limit >_>)

here is some excerpts in which it is used

"From absolute stupor, they appeared to be, all at once, aroused to the highest pitch of excitement, and rushed wildly about, going to and from a certain point on the beach, with the strangest expressions of mingled horror, rage, and intense curiosity depicted on their countenances, and shouting, at the top of their voices, "Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!""

...

 By-and-by the men with the stakes drove them in a circle around it, and no sooner was this arrangement completed, than the whole of the vast assemblage rushed into the interior of the island, with loud screams of "Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!"

...

The sight of the linen seemed to affect him in a very singular manner. He could not be prevailed upon to touch it or go near it, shuddering when we attempted to force him, and shrieking out, "Tekeli-li!"

...

he became violently affected with convulsions. These were succeeded by drowsiness and stupor, and low murmurings of "'Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!"

...

Many gigantic and pallidly white birds flew continuously now from beyond the veil, and their scream was the eternal Tekeli-li! as they retreated from our vision.

as you can see it is often used when people are scared or thinking about scary things, and can be assumed to be some kind of expression of fear or some protection against the thing they fear.

in the notes it says:

Tekeli-li! was the cry of the affrighted natives of Tsalal upon discovering the carcase of the white animal picked up at sea. This also was the shuddering exclamatives of Tsalal upon discovering the carcass of the white materials in possession of Mr. Pym. This also was the shriek of the swift-flying, white, and gigantic birds which issued from the vapory white curtain of the South. Nothing white was to be found at Tsalal

this is puzzling in the contest of ATMoM because shoggoths are not white.

[Mike J.]

Thanks for the quotes, Kulain. "What cats use." LOL

What Danforth Saw: I didn't think about it too hard, I just imagined a giant shoggoth with a zillion eyes and fanged mouths and tentacles and crude wings straining upward to eat their plane and barely missing.

The Writing: I guess that this might have been a warning; "Warning: Shoggoths" - that makes sense if the Elder Things wrote it, or if the shoggoth wrote it (they would have seen those signs frequently, when they were slaving away).

I like your definition of Tekeli-li. I thought it might mean "Stop!" - could easily have been screamed frequently by terrified Elder Things during their final battle, and works if the shoggoth just learned it by rote / repetition OR if the shoggoth was intelligent enough to know what it was saying and it wanted them to stop so it could eat them. I think "No!" is another reasonable guess: as slaves they would have heard it, during the final war they would have hear it from terrified Elder Things, but the shoggoth speaking it would have no idea what it meant. ... That option vaguely reminds me of the ape rebellion in "Conquest of the Planet of the Apes."

MJ

[ahtzib]

I don't think there is any doubt that Lovecraft meant the shoggoths to allude at least in some degree to "inferior humans" (aka, Africans in his perspective. While he eventually got over the idea of racism and replaced it with the notion of culture clash for Eurasians, he continued to believe Africans and indigenous Australians to be inferior). The give away is the crude imitation of the art. When I see that bit, I'm guessing Lovecraft is thinking of Nubia and how Nubian and Meroitic builders and artists created their own takes on classical Egyptian art when Egypt was in decline and being taken over by foreigners, which he would have considered decadent.

Lovecraft ranted on about his hatred for the machine age, but he never conceived of it Terminator style, with a rise of the robots. It was that machinery would make people weak and decadent and aesthetically lazy, a stage he describes for the Elder Things (after they have reached the height of their civilization, they start to forget how to do things because they don't need to do them anymore. It's the same in "The Mound").

My read of ATMoM is that there is an element of both here. The Elder Things were decadent but had once been great scholars and builders ("men"). They were not able to best the more aggressive foreigners that threatened them (not unlike how Lovecraft expected the Yellow Peril to take over the world in the future, after an epic global struggle with Anglo civilization). So they slowly slunk into decadence and let their machines do more and more of their work for them. Eventually they decayed to the point that their civilization was doomed. Like the Nubians trying and failing to emulate the Egyptians, or the Christians rooting around in the glorious ruins of Rome, the barbarians replaced them.