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Author Topic: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth  (Read 17943 times)
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« Reply #135 on: August 21, 2011, 05:21:02 PM »

And let's not forget the family jewelry.
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« Reply #136 on: August 21, 2011, 06:50:57 PM »

I've assumed that, yes, he is a half-breed Deep One, and toward the end of the story we 'hear' him going insane.

Going from his (sane) suspicions to almost certain knowledge (still sane), then from despair / near suicide (still sane) to acceptance / exaltation (insanity).

Assuming that he is a Deep One, and that the dreams are real telepathic communication from his aunt (or whatever), I think the 'normal' reaction to this might still be suicide or some kind of violent action against Innsmouth and the Deep Ones.

Robert was never socialized in what would be the Innsmouth-preferred way: he wasn't always aware of and surrounded by the human-hybrid Deep One society, history, religion and destiny that nearly all the hybrids are.

He grew up in 'normal' society, always knowing himself to be human and 'normal.' Let me draw a clumsy parallel here: assume a normal person is suddenly, irrefutably informed that they will become a werewolf - what then happens in most werewolf stories? Don't they usually try to imprison or kill themselves?

Turning into the monster is generally a bad thing. The Deep Ones are plotting some kind of slow advance on humanity, if nothing else (the 'bigger city next time'). They are stockpiling shoggoths. They accept human sacrifices. I think we can reasonably assume they're evil.

Therefore, how could a sane person rejoice at becoming an evil, inhuman monster?


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« Reply #137 on: August 21, 2011, 09:31:21 PM »


The fine line that HPL treads is whether the narrator is indeed insane, or, having realized the greater potential being a Deep One, he then abandons his humanity in favor of it.

Ergo, does the narrator "go over to the dark side", or does he evovle to a higher form of life? The textual evidence favors the latter, but ultimately it's up to the reader to decide...
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« Reply #138 on: August 22, 2011, 06:46:38 PM »

On an unrelated note, I spent some time in the ocean today and didn't see any Deep Ones. I was ...actually, not disappointed.

And back on topic, Olmstead reminds me of werewolves on Buffy. One of our main recurring characters is a werewolf who knows that he's a monster and has himself locked up every full moon (and the two days surrounding it, I believe). He treats it like an illness/curse and even travels off to Tibet to learn how to control it. He can still appreciate some of the good things, like better sense of smell even when the moon isn't full, but he sees it as bad overall.

He then meets up with a young lady who sees it as something awesome. She's all about giving into one's animal side because it's not their fault they got bitten and if they're animals, then they're just being animals. This makes her monster-of-the-week. Olmstead's kind of like her.
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« Reply #139 on: August 23, 2011, 12:08:39 PM »

So many different ways to interpret this story!  I suppose whether or not one 'gives in' to the change might depend somewhat on how one feels about one's life as a human.  I think the narrator seemed pretty happy with his life, so I think it's reasonably natural that he'd resist it.  But somebody who's life had been mostly unhappy might embrace this change as a chance at a new beginning.

The other question to ask is, does the change actually have an effect on the victim's mind?  I mean, perhaps the make-up of their brain actually - literally, changes their mind, so that even a person who was sane and happy with their life up until that point, might find themselves embracing the life and culture of a Deep One, just because their mind has been altered in such a way that it cannot help but do that.

I've lust listened to the Innsmouth wrap-up.  The interviews were fascinating and really, all of these episodes about The Shadow Over Innsmouth have, if anything, cemented The Shadow Over Innsmouth as being easily my favourite H. P. Lovecraft story.
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« Reply #140 on: August 23, 2011, 12:39:06 PM »

On an unrelated note, I spent some time in the ocean today and didn't see any Deep Ones. I was ...actually, not disappointed.

And back on topic, Olmstead reminds me of werewolves on Buffy. One of our main recurring characters is a werewolf who knows that he's a monster and has himself locked up every full moon (and the two days surrounding it, I believe). He treats it like an illness/curse and even travels off to Tibet to learn how to control it. He can still appreciate some of the good things, like better sense of smell even when the moon isn't full, but he sees it as bad overall.

He then meets up with a young lady who sees it as something awesome. She's all about giving into one's animal side because it's not their fault they got bitten and if they're animals, then they're just being animals. This makes her monster-of-the-week. Olmstead's kind of like her.


Just wanted to say, that I LOVE the Buffy and Angel series! I am sure there are parallels between the two.
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« Reply #141 on: August 23, 2011, 03:34:40 PM »

Robert M. Price annoys me for the 2nd time.  I freely admit I am not an expert, but some of his connections sound very tenuous to me.  What he said about the people of Insmouth hiding from their sin seems especially to be viewed from the wrong direction.   

The interview with Loucks was amazing and I wish it had gone on for another hour...or been the whole show. 

Robert Price brought up some interesting points, and as Bulbatron points out there are very many ways to interpret this story. Unfortunately Robert Price got his own interpretation slightly wrong. I'll try to explain.

He had the insight that the Innsmouth folk were attempting to assimilate or synthesize their own faith to what was discovered in the South Sea (Caroline Islands?) by old Captain Marsh, and he points to the spread of Hellenism among the Jews of the Roman period as an example of the back-and-forth that goes on with that. And Lovecraft gives us a very good hint that he is toying with that period by naming the town drunk "Zadok." We sense the same kind of alienation perhaps the ancient Jews felt at seeing their Jewish culture turn Greek in the events of several centuries in Innsmouth.

BUT.

The Dagon cultists fully embrace the new religion, and the trappings of the old religion, Protestantism of the New England variety, are only used as subterfuge, we assume, historically: they have taken over the church building and now their high priest parades about openly wearing the tiara. They certainly don't seem guided at all by the desire to preserve something of their old faith, judging from the few glimpses we are given. They are a classic cult: they attempt to return the lost tiara by bribery then resort to murder to deal with their own member who betrayed them, the drunk guy who sold it to the historical society in the next town over. This can't really be seen as an attempt to reconcile Christianity and Dagonism, to find common things and then to secretly continue practicing Christianity under the guise of Dagonism.

The only person in the story who seems to fit Robert Price's model is Zadok Allen; he seems to be the only one with any desire to preserve anything at all, if only as memories of what has happened. As the town drunk he's the lone voice in the wilderness tooling around in animal skins and eating bugs. In other words, he's powerless at this point, and has no following but certainly enough enemies whose tolerance only extends so far. So Zadok is the last of his line, at a dead end.

What Robert Price proposes could happen in the future, if Dagonism spread to other towns, but it shows no signs of doing so. Adherents seem to be aware of their status as outsiders in the minority in the culture/society at large, and while they probably seek to subvert that society for their own purposes, it doesn't seem like they're actively proseletyzing now (ca. 1927?) or in the recent past.

It's interesting why Lovecraft hinted at this period by using the name "Zadok." It seems like a brilliant device, very Armageddon, and adds to the sense of the end is nigh. I know Adolphe de Castro sent him A LOT of work to look over, and I know de Castro wrote on the Second Temple period at length in his Jewish Forerunners of Christianity, so I wonder if Lovecraft lifted some inspiration from that book for Shadow over Innsmouth.

Speaking of speculative fiction, the latest media blitz on Libya--you know, the one where they tried to convince Libyans and the world Tripoli had fallen and Khaddafi had fled etc. etc. using "documentary evidence such as al Jazzeera and CNN reports--was called Operation Mermaid Dawn. They allegedly were running insurgents into Tripoli harbor to carry out terrorist attacks inside the city since the insurgents couldn't gain access by land. "They" meaning British and French special forces, who did a large share of the terrorism, not the "freedom fighters" who are actually recycled al Qaeda assets (see the "umad Arab?" thread under General for more on fake al Qaeda/al CIAda). Since the head of American al Qaeda is a KNOWN Lovecraft fanatic, I guess they really wanted to call it Operation Deep Ones, but Langley said that was just too silly. Whereas "Mermaid Dawn" sounds quite...silly, but not as silly. Or at least not as obvious. inb4 SEALs and frogmen. Smiley
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« Reply #142 on: August 23, 2011, 03:40:59 PM »

Since the head of American al Qaeda is a KNOWN Lovecraft fanatic...

Wait, what?
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« Reply #143 on: August 23, 2011, 03:48:41 PM »

it's all in the "umad Arab?" thread. But don't worry, al Qaeda is fictional anyway.
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« Reply #144 on: August 23, 2011, 08:04:55 PM »

Yeah, I don't see Innsmouth preserving much of New England Christianity. As far as the reader can tell, only a rather flimsy facade of normalcy is put up in front of the Esoteric Order of Dagon. Drive through the town and you might not notice anything awry (probably no human sacrifice in the streets), but ask any outsider a question and you'll get an ear-full, if only of bizarre rumors about devils, imps, cults and inbreeding. They even use the word Dagon in their name - not too subtle.

I do like our boy's idea of the Deep Ones taking over in a reverse-colonialism fashion. The Deep Ones offer the natives shiny trinkets to get what they want in exchange (human sacrifice?). Then the Deep Ones slowly erase the native culture with their own, through intermarriage and religion. Any problems? Kill all the natives who oppose... So their control slowly spreads across the land...


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« Reply #145 on: August 24, 2011, 04:59:10 AM »

This whole "hybridization between humans and alien overlords" thing has become a very popular theme lately. Lovecraft sort of beat the modern UFOlogists to the punch on that one. Shadow could be an episode of X-Files, easily.
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« Reply #146 on: August 24, 2011, 08:39:49 AM »

Yeah, and it probably was if you go back and watch the show enough to find it.

Bob
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« Reply #147 on: August 25, 2011, 04:37:32 AM »

That's right, there was. Moulder and Scully drive a rental to the beachfront community of Tahola, Washington on the Quinault Indian Reservation on the 4th of July, 1990, and instantly sense something is dreadfully wrong. Three Hispanic boys on the beach are the only people who will talk to them, and they're only there because Texaco brought them in to do construction on the gas station...
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« Reply #148 on: August 25, 2011, 09:09:49 AM »

Really? That's uncanny...

Bob
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« Reply #149 on: August 25, 2011, 09:46:21 AM »

Uncanny, but not true. Well, not "literally" true.
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