Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth

[Bulbatron]

I have always liked this story, and now that I've re-read it and listened to the podcast episodes discussing it (I have to concur with everyone else here, great job guys, I've been laughing out loud on the commuter train), I have a theory about the biology of the Deep Ones.

We know that they live "forever", barring accident/murder/whatever, so they don't need to reproduce very often to maintain population size. What if the interbreeding with humans is, in fact, the only breeding they do? They only breeding they can do, even. Perhaps their species co-evolved with humans, and through some evolutionary quirk over millennia they lost the ability to reproduce on their own. In which case they are completely dependent on humanity. This would explain the apparent imbalance in the "trade", where the Deep Ones receive trinkets/sacrifices/"entertainment" in exchange for swarms of fish and freaking GOLD. The Deep Ones are probably doing a lot of work to bring all the fish, let alone manufacture jewelry.

This would also explain the story's conjecture that the Deep Ones could destroy mankind but have "no interest" in doing so. Indeed, it would be completely against their own self-interest to destroy the species they need to breed with.

This even suggests a non-ritualistic use for the human sacrifices they get: Perhaps they need human bodies for surgical purposes, to heal wounded individuals or transplant organs or whatnot.

Earlier in the thread I suggested that the Deep Ones, Dagon and Hydra were all creations of the Elder Things along with all other life on Earth.  I based this upon what I read in At the Mountains of Madness, but I must admit, I'm not a big fan of the idea that Dagon and Hydra are merely creations of the Elder Things.  Reading your ideas, Jacknutting, I must say I think they make a lot of sense and they help me to put another spin on my own theory which I like a lot more than my previous ideas.  That being, that Dagon and Hydra - who I always think of as being gigantic Deep Ones - did indeed come from - elsewhere...  They may have bought many Deep Ones with them, but then arriving on Earth, they (as you speculated) gradually lost the ability to pro-create, so they had to use humans when necessary to keep up their numbers, causing what I've been calling the 'pure' Deep Ones to be the ones were were descended directly from, or who were brought to Earth by, Dagon and Hydra.  So, as I said, I reckon we never actually get to see a 'pure' Deep One in The Shadow Over Innsmouth and even the ones who the narrator sees coming out of the water near the end, are just generations-old human Deep Ones who are just coming ashore for this special occasion!

The idea about the sacrifices being for an altogether more scientific and practical purpose is also an idea a really like and makes more sense, based on what I've just said.

The notion that the Deep Ones feel they probably shouldn't destroy mankind does make rather a mess of my theory that they were preparing to use the shoggoths as instruments of war and destruction, but I do think there is definitely some diabolical scheme afoot, again, due to what Zadok said about being worried about what they were going to do.  So, maybe the Deep Ones were planning simply to emerge from the oceans and enslave mankind, and they were going to use the shoggoths to suppress any resistance.  So, after the submarine attack and the Inssmouth raids, will they move this plan forwards?

[Ruth - CthulhuChick]

I love this Deep One Tiara :

I'm like 90% sure that's the artwork the HPLHS used for the postcard that comes with the DART Shadow Over Innsmouth CD.

Yep, that's the site of the guy who designed it for them.

[fubarinpittsburgh]

In part two when Chad said the line about "getting gods who give you good stuff" it reminded me of this song-

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pznQiLHvWHE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[fubarinpittsburgh]

I never understood as a teen why people thought Lovecraft was racist and neither did my father. (this was back in the 90s and I had not read all of his work at that point). Especially because of this story that I always saw as a "Weird Tales" version of the British reaction to native Americans.

The Deep Ones show up. Give away some shiny bobbles. Seem nice at first. Then the slavery, rape, destruction of your beliefs, and you are forced to worship a god who gives away free fish.

Sound familiar?

At least the people of Innsmouth got some gold out of it. My people sold Manhattan for $24 worth of beads.

[wereguppy]

Here's a baseless train of Mythos thought I had while re-reading this story.

The protagonist, Robert Olmstead, mentions "...I was the grandson of Eliza Orne of Arkham, who was born in 1867..." and that Eliza's father was Benjamin Orne.

Are these children of Simon/Jedediah Orne (aka. Joseph Nadek) who left Salem between 1720 and 1750? It wasn't until going over Innsmouth again in preparation for the podcast that I paid attention to the Orne name and the mention of it at the end brought me back to Charles Dexter Ward and "what if" Orne and Curwen went through the same situation, but at different times?

Because Curwen sent Orne the details of his contingency plan so that some one would look back, yet know not why. Charles learns "certain letters from Providence citizens to Rev. Thomas Barnard and others brought about his quiet removal to part unknown" and that the citizens of Salem "took action in 1771".

What I can't figure out is whether "brought about his quiet removal" means that they disposed of Orne or whether Orne learned of the letters and decided to quit Salem. Was he removed or did he remove himself?
Whatever the case, the "certain letters from Providence" indicates that Orne had some manner of activity in the New England area.

All that to say: I had this image of an untold "The Case of Charles Dexter Orne" involving Simon successfully returning only to discover that he's part Marsh.

His poor kids must be plagued by small talk questions like: "So where are you from?"
~ "Well, I'm part fish-frog on my mother's side and part deathless-necromancer on my father's side. Family reunions suck because half the family wants to swim and the other half wants to reanimate dead scientists. During middle school and high school I spent my summers at my uncle's place herding Shoggoths in this crappy town with no mall. And one year I had drive out to Virginia with dad to exhume bodies because mom wanted an authentic Thanksgiving with the original pilgrims and Wampanoag indians. We finally managed to get everyone seated and somewhat calmed when grandma came shamble-hopping to the table. She started to bless the meal but only got as far as 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh' when the reaminated lost it and we had to call everyone back down. Of course I had to sweep everyone back up. It was a total bust."

[Mike J.]

See, the moral of the story is: If you find out you have some 'foreign' ancestry, even as small as 1/32 or 1/64, you should do the decent thing and kill yourself immediately, as you are an unspeakable abomination.

Otherwise, the foreigners will 'flood' the land and destroy civilization.


-MJ

[Mike J.]

Wereguppy: Awesome 

[old book]

Yes, fubar. It sounds familiar. By the way, you can interpret it as ageist more than racist, which also recalls the Inuit tradition of elderly committing suicide by cold. The protagonist contemplates suicide in Shadow, and death is mentioned as preferable to old age as a Deep One elsewhere. In fact, the Vinland sagas seem to indicate the "skraelings" or natives were more Eskimo than Amerind in whatever area the Norse were exploring (Lovecraft thought it was nearby). The descriptions of the Innsmouth folk could also be interpreted as a racism-colored caricature of Eskimos rather than South Sea frog-people.

Compare the following with the passage in Shadow over Steve concerning Dagon and worshipping effective gods who deliver:

1342: Gisle Oddsson's Annal. Sometime before 1673 the Icelandic bishop Gisle Oddsson compiled a chronology of Old Norse history. His entry for the year 1342 includes the statement that the "inhabitants of Greenland" had "spontaneously deserted the true Christian faith and religion...repudiating all good morals and true virtues," and had turned to "Americae populos," literally "the people of America." Oddsson was making good use of the new terminology, but when he was writing, the only people in Arctic America were the Eskimos. The meaning of his statement is not necessarily that the Greenlanders had converted to an Eskimo religion. It probably refers to some specific rebellion against the church's prhobition of commerce with the heathen Eskimos. Such an action would be quite likely if the royal supply ship had not show up for a while. In fact, there is no record of any commerce between Greenland and Norway from 1327 until the ship bearing one Ivar Baardsson left Norway in 1341. It probably wintered in Iceland and arrived in Greenland during this incident effectively of rebellion.
--James Robert Enterline, Erikson, Eskimos and Columbus: Medieval European Knowledge of America, page 129

(Enterline doesn't seem to provide any evidence there was any ban on "trading with the heathen," but that's another story).

Which leads to another possible literary connection with, or current underlying, Shadow: the "lost" Roanoke colony. Presumably, they "went native," as the Norse Greenlanders are alleged to have above. The "first European" born in America, Virginia Dare, is prefigured by Snorri Thorfinnson, who managed to swim away. Replace "Gone to Croatoan" with "Gone to R'lyeh" and the Deep Ones become the real, original Americans, putting into shore for a while. The marginal lost Americans survive as a current, a submarine current, and the "taint" they pose is the taint of America itself threatening European sensibilities.

Is it revenge? Is it just things coming back full circle, cosmic justice? Are the Deep Ones more European, or more American? Or are they metis, mestizos, or something else? Are they planning to distribute army blankets to Americans infected with Shoggoth? Will there be trails of tears for the middle class marchers to concentration camps, boarding schools to reeducate them, followed by the fate of Zadok Allen either on the reservation, or on the streets of R'lyeh?

"Bless us, o Lord, and give us this our daily seal."

[Mike J.]

I've tried to locate the probable site of Innsmouth, given the clues in the story:

"... wide salt marshes, desolate and unpeopled, keep neighbours off from Innsmouth on the landward side ..."

"... directly from ancient Newburyport to Arkham ..." - Somewhere around Newburyport.

"... No railroad now—B. & M. never went through, and the branch line from Rowley was given up years ago ..." - Somewhere near Rowley.

"... Everybody trades mostly here or in Arkham or Ipswich ..." - Somewhere near Ipswich.

"I took a seat far behind him, but on the same side of the bus, since I wished to watch the shore during the journey." - Innsmouth therefore must be south of Newburyport, since the driver's side of the bus will be toward the shore.

"... passing the Lower Green and Parker River, and finally emerging into a long, monotonous stretch of open shore country." - Innsmouth must be farther south than this, then.

"Out the window I could see … the sandy line of Plum Island, and we presently drew very near the beach as our narrow road veered off from the main highway to Rowley and Ipswich … At last we lost sight of Plum Island and saw … the open Atlantic on our left" - Innsmouth must be south of Plum Island.

"Then we ... beheld the outspread valley beyond, where the Manuxet joins the sea just north of the long line of cliffs that culminate in Kingsport Head and veer off toward Cape Ann." - Innsmouth must be North of Cape Ann.

Therefore, cross-referencing the non-fictional locations, I believe Lovecraft intended Innsmouth to be in the marshy area east or east-north-east of Rowley, though possibly as far south as just northwest of Great Neck:

http://gndn.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/where-is-h-p-lovecrafts-innsmouth/


-MJ

[old book]

I triangulated to about the same place a few years ago, and have been trying to forget ever since. Thanks a lot.

[fubarinpittsburgh]

I've tried to locate the probable site of Innsmouth, given the clues in the story:

"... wide salt marshes, desolate and unpeopled, keep neighbours off from Innsmouth on the landward side ..."

"... directly from ancient Newburyport to Arkham ..." - Somewhere around Newburyport.

"... No railroad now—B. & M. never went through, and the branch line from Rowley was given up years ago ..." - Somewhere near Rowley.

"... Everybody trades mostly here or in Arkham or Ipswich ..." - Somewhere near Ipswich.

"I took a seat far behind him, but on the same side of the bus, since I wished to watch the shore during the journey." - Innsmouth therefore must be south of Newburyport, since the driver's side of the bus will be toward the shore.

"... passing the Lower Green and Parker River, and finally emerging into a long, monotonous stretch of open shore country." - Innsmouth must be farther south than this, then.

"Out the window I could see … the sandy line of Plum Island, and we presently drew very near the beach as our narrow road veered off from the main highway to Rowley and Ipswich … At last we lost sight of Plum Island and saw … the open Atlantic on our left" - Innsmouth must be south of Plum Island.

"Then we ... beheld the outspread valley beyond, where the Manuxet joins the sea just north of the long line of cliffs that culminate in Kingsport Head and veer off toward Cape Ann." - Innsmouth must be North of Cape Ann.

Therefore, cross-referencing the non-fictional locations, I believe Lovecraft intended Innsmouth to be in the marshy area east or east-north-east of Rowley, though possibly as far south as just northwest of Great Neck:

http://gndn.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/where-is-h-p-lovecrafts-innsmouth/


-MJ

Who's up for a road trip? On the way we can also hit Hobb's End New Hampshire and Missing Mile North Carolina.

[TheMediocreYoungishOne -Tom-]

Innsmouth would be about 1 and 1/2 hours from me, about.

[old book]

I'll have to swim from here. It should take just about one week.

There is an early-antique-internet photo collection of a road trip to Innsmouth made in the 1970s. That puts it closer in time to HPL's Innsmouth, and I presume a lot of things have changed since then. Anyway, it would give you an idea of which roads to take. Plus there are some cool pictures from Providence and surrounding area.

Oops, it's gone. It was under "Trip to Innsmouth" here:

http://www.satanicreds.org/satanicreds/art-cthulhufun.html

I guess the wayback machine probably didn't keep the snapshots, either.

http://eodagon23.byethost24.com/eoDagon23/trip_to_innsmouth/innsindex.html

(I think I copied them all to CD, though. They had a shot of Plum Island or Devil Reef or something.)

[Mike J.]

As an aside, does anyone know if HPL drew-up a map of Innsmouth? I know we have a map of Arkham he sketched. This story is so oddly full of street-by-street directions, it seems like he must have at least drawn something for reference.

Incidentally, I've been 'following along' with Messrs. Lehman & Branney's replica prop map from their DART CD, and it appears to be excellent. Accurate, and looks exactly as it should (a quick sketch).


-MJ

[Bob Lovecraft]

It's like finding out that Ammi Pierce's dad was a meteorite. 

BWAH-HA-HA!!

Bob