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Author Topic: Episodes 84-88 - The Shadow Over Innsmouth  (Read 17742 times)
Konrad Hartmann
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« Reply #240 on: June 24, 2012, 01:13:24 AM »

Interesting you mention that - there's some AMAZING work going on in Maryland right now that indicates we have a VERY early human incursion into the New World.  The archaeologists behind it are trying to argue an Atlantic arctic crossing, but I don't buy that.  But the artifacts being discovered look like some stuff found in central Texas in the 50's that was totally dismissed as being ancient back in the day.  

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if one day someone turns up a Cro-magnon bone somewhere along the Atlantic coast.  

You're talking about the Solutrean hypothesis, right? From my limited knowledge, yeah, the idea of an Atlantic crossing seems unlikely. But considering how often anthropology gets turned on its head by new findings, I'm willing to at least consider the possibility. There doesn't seem to be any genetic evidence of it, but maybe all that means is that they died out? Is it possible that these artifacts traveling through trade? Or that this tool design just happens to be what multiple cultures happened to find most efficient? I wonder if opponents of pre-Clovis theory are using the weaknesses of the Solutrean hypothesis as a red herring.

Whether or not the Paleoamericans came from Europe, the existence of pre-Clovis people seems pretty well supported.
Here is a 13,000 (sorry, I first wrote 30,000) year old mammoth carving: http://news.discovery.com/history/earliest-american-art-mammoth-110622.html

And here is an interesting article about the Maryland research:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/radical-theory-of-first-americans-places-stone-age-europeans-in-delmarva-20000-years-ago/2012/02/28/gIQA4mriiR_story.html
This is very interesting, but it seems like the lack of DNA evidence is a major drawback to the Solutrean hypothesis. Or is it feasible that this genetic population died out completely in the Americas? While the trans-Atlantic crossing seems unlikely, maybe we should keep in mind how early Australia was populated.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 09:01:19 PM by Konrad Hartmann » Logged

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Konrad Hartmann
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« Reply #241 on: June 24, 2012, 01:16:47 AM »

There was almost certainly at least several African colonizations of North America before Columbus, and almost certainly parts of South America as well.

Do you have more information about this?
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« Reply #242 on: June 24, 2012, 04:35:22 PM »

Since old book seems to be absent, I dare surmising that he refers to the legend of Abu Bakr. The Aegyptian historian Al Umari has a halve page long, third hand record about an anonymous king of Mali (later associated with the alleged Ab? Bakr, whose very existence is unproven) who provided a fleet to sail out into the Atlantic ocean and never returned.
Evidence for that story there is none and the oral tradition in the respective region is highly unclear.
Around these few sentences however cluster a lot of wild theories.
Some muslims want to prove that this guy introduced Islam to the Americas and the afrocentric movement just whishful think about a widespread African colonization of America.
The only other hint to that I am aware of are some early Conquistadores  talking about „negros“ in the Carbics.

Returning to New England, the Greenlandic sagas about the voyages to North America, probably Newfoundland but perhaps also as far south as Massachusetts, contain descriptions of very Eskimo-like natives there. Since that time the "Dorset" cultures in the Canadian Arctic have also been displaced and assimilated by the Inuit invasion. After Colombus the natives on the Atlantic coast were more Native American-type cultures than Eskimo. Did things change that swiftly?

My guess here is that most probably Icelandic oral tradition got some names and faces confused. Remember the Sögur we read today are handed down to us by Icelanders some 200-3oo years later and the original Viking travellers were no ethnologists who referred to all peoples they met in Greenland or wherever in America with the same unfriendly term „Skraelingar“. On the one hand we have stunning observations in these reports which which surely are no inventions and on the other hand there are merely fantastic tales. Drawing ethnographic conclusions from these tales would in my opinion overestimate their credibility.

There are also all those tales of "grey-eyed Welsh-speaking Indians" and some interesting isolated groups up in the hills in Kentucky and Tennessee. 

Fascinating topic but please not Prince Madoc and the Mandan Tribe again! 
I `m aware there `s a variety of such  reports by frontiersmen, travellers, explorers and the like, dating back to late 15hundrets and I don `t simply dismiss them as „miraculous tales from the New World“ but why have the conclusions always to be that fantastic: Medieval Welsh princes, Viking settlements in the very heart of the American continent?
I would more readily befriend with the notion of early Post-Columbian settlers/missionaries leaving their traces in native population and their culture. The Christian-Indian syncretisms mentioned in these reports also point rather into that direction.
On the other hand, the Vikings made no secret of their discoveries and the existence  of land west of Greenland was a known fact in medieval Europe, although nobody seemed to really care. There `s rumour about a Danish expedition to Canada in the 1470ies and Greenlanders occasionally made the passage. Moreover, european whale hunters and pirates were active in the northern Atlantic these days, even pillaging the Greenlandic coast. So there might have been a few individuals travelling there, but no significant settlements.


Or that this tool design just happens to be what multiple cultures happened to find most efficient?
That `s what I thought of the Solutréen Hypothesis when it was first suggestet about 15 years ago. Admittetly I`m not familiar with the technology from that specific period but as a trained stone mason and having worked on European Neolithic sites and dealt with the respective experimental archeologist scene I kow about the conduct of lithic material when you craft on it. So I tend to this more nearby conclusion :different people working with similar material might independently develop similar techniques.
Moreover, the end of the Solutréen period predates Clovis by five or six millenia.
But I seem to be a bit outdated here. That Maryland research is all new to me and I looked over the article only briefly but if the dating is correct, the time gap between Solutréen and Clovis would be closed.
However those new (or newly evaluated in the case of Texas) findings you and T. Kelly Lee are talking about might shine a new light on the evolution of the Clovis tools. The dating of Buttermilk might be weakly founded but stratigraphigally it is defo Pre-Clovis and the design is said to seem like a precursor of Clovis.
 
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Bob Lovecraft
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« Reply #243 on: June 25, 2012, 08:44:31 AM »

Trust me, if you knew what I looked like, I think you'd have some very serious questions about my own genetic lineage.

Oh, yeah.  I could ABSOLUTELY be Arthur Jermyn, no worries. My tailor assures me I have the strangest proportions he's ever seen. 

You have a tailor? My aren't we the rich man-about-town! I think I need to get a cushy government position now. Wink

Bob
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Konrad Hartmann
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« Reply #244 on: June 25, 2012, 09:00:19 PM »

their culture. The Christian-Indian syncretisms mentioned in these reports also point rather into that direction.
On the other hand, the Vikings made no secret of their discoveries and the existence  of land west of Greenland was a known fact in medieval Europe, although nobody seemed to really care. There `s rumour about a Danish expedition to Canada in the 1470ies and Greenlanders occasionally made the passage. Moreover, european whale hunters and pirates were active in the northern Atlantic these days, even pillaging the Greenlandic coast. So there might have been a few individuals travelling there, but no significant settlements.


Or that this tool design just happens to be what multiple cultures happened to find most efficient?
That `s what I thought of the Solutréen Hypothesis when it was first suggestet about 15 years ago. Admittetly I`m not familiar with the technology from that specific period but as a trained stone mason and having worked on European Neolithic sites and dealt with the respective experimental archeologist scene I kow about the conduct of lithic material when you craft on it. So I tend to this more nearby conclusion :different people working with similar material might independently develop similar techniques.
Moreover, the end of the Solutréen period predates Clovis by five or six millenia.
But I seem to be a bit outdated here. That Maryland research is all new to me and I looked over the article only briefly but if the dating is correct, the time gap between Solutréen and Clovis would be closed.
However those new (or newly evaluated in the case of Texas) findings you and T. Kelly Lee are talking about might shine a new light on the evolution of the Clovis tools. The dating of Buttermilk might be weakly founded but stratigraphigally it is defo Pre-Clovis and the design is said to seem like a precursor of Clovis.
 

Pillaging the coast of Viking-era Greenland had to be one of the crappiest pirate gigs in history. "Argh, we've come to steal your sheep-urine saturated floorboards. And your emaciated cow. And-and-give us the rocks from your wall!" Maybe it was entry level.

Can you knap a Solutrean- or Clovis-style tool, by the way, Graf?
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« Reply #245 on: June 26, 2012, 01:51:35 PM »


Pillaging the coast of Viking-era Greenland had to be one of the crappiest pirate gigs in history. "Argh, we've come to steal your sheep-urine saturated floorboards. And your emaciated cow. And-and-give us the rocks from your wall!" Maybe it was entry level.




"I `m sorry mate, but those have already been taken by the damnable Inutos last year. Only thing I can offer you is some seewheed."
One almost feels sorry for the pirates. They seem to have taken more the people themselves than their goods, but I can `t tell  if those made good slaves. Life must have been quite depressing in the last stages of Norse Greenland.



Can you knap a Solutrean- or Clovis-style tool, by the way, Graf?


As I said, paleolithics are not my camp and one can `t craft such things offhand. Stone tools are anything but primitive and each era must have had their own specialized craftsmen. Some people devote years trying to reproduce bygone technology.
However I made my own experiments with Bandkeramik and  Corded Ware style axes of basalt and amphibolite which taught me a lot about the skills of our ancestors. It must have been a really crappy job for the stone cutters apprentice to drill a hole in a amphibolit Rohling. And then, just millimeters to the breakthrough the thing breaks apart... One wrong and the job is botched (and it takes hours of labor before you even get to realize you botched it).  I feel profound respect for the craftsmanship of those people. 
Over the millenia we forgot as much much as we learned.
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« Reply #246 on: June 26, 2012, 04:28:26 PM »

On African colonisations of the Americas: certainly there is the lore of the Moorish colonisations of New Jersey, but beyond this there is some anomolous (spelling?) campfire evidence in South America, and lots and lots of "Negroid" head statues from the Columbia River basin area to the furthest reaches of Central America, and Native American lore. Then there are the various "Black Indians" from the Mardi Gras Indians to the Creeks in Florida, and no real evidence the blacks in these groups were runaway slaves.

On tools: certainly convergent evolution in tool-making is a distinct possibility, as is the possibility that tools acquired over vast distances via trade could inspire the new owners to emulate the technique, which is also true of abandoned and rediscovered tool kits. Just sayin.

On the piss-poor prospects of raiding the Viking raiders/squatters in West Greenland: besides rustling the dwarf cows, there is also driftwood. Srs tho, there is lore the Pope sold the nominally Catholic lost colony to Portuguese slavers who carried off the able-bodied to sell in the Azores ca. 1500 something. There are also tales of Dutch raids along the settled West Coast. Further, there is some documentary evidence of raids by the English on both Iceland and Greenland, and of a covert operation by Bacon or one of those fellows with secret maps of Greenland and sailor-informants who had visited the mythical isle of "Brazil" providing further information from the port of Liverpool about the choice lands in the New World ready for British colonisation in collaboration with the British crown against the interests of other European powers.

On the Norse in North America: the sagas provide some very specific information on the material technology of the "Skraeling" culture encountered during subsequent voyages of discovery, timber expeditions and colonisation efforts. One thing they had was exploding skin bags, according to the sagas. Inflating seal skins is a very Eskimo thing, whether Dorset or Inuit. Snorri did write long after the fact, but his sagas seem fairly reliable. There are some fantastic tales of Greenland later, involving homophobia of all things and a flight to refuge in Denmark. On the archaeological side, there is a find of a Norwegian coin in Maine bearing the likeness of the king following the one Leif allegedly met and who imparted to Leif the mission to Christianise Greenland. What strata this was found in and whether it is part of that stratum or an insertion or hoax, I do not know. Nonetheless, there is evidence of Norse settlements in Arctic Canada and of iron smelting operations. There are also Greenlandic cultural items at Inuit sites, whether trade items or carried by the Greenlanders themselves, no one knows at this point. In Greenland the archaeology includes North American items such as buffalo fur and North American hardwoods which had to be imported through human effort.

My own opinion is that the Greenlandic Norse didn't go extinct and their fate is fairly prosaic, they simply assimilated to Inuit populations in Greenland and Arctic Canada as Europe grew distant, first because of the plague, and then because of the worsening climate and lack of communication, or interest, for that matter, on the part of Europeans.

Leonard Nimoy's program In Search Of had an episode about the Norse in Arctic Canada in the 1970s including evidence of a Norse-style long house on Baffin Island I believe, and what looked like a monolith in the shape of Thor's hammer. The whole Blond Eskimo thing still hasn't been debunked thoroughly either, in my opinion. It is possible Menzies' ideas on the genetics of a certain population in the Great Lakes region, linking them to Thera off Greece and metal extraction operations in the neolithic, is also correct. It seems likely to me as well that Basque whalers and fishermen did make it to the Gulf of St. Lawrence rather early.

There is some speculation that Inuit made the crossing in the opposite direction, talk of Eskimo graves in Ireland and Scotland. I don't know about this, but have heard talk of it.

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« Reply #247 on: June 27, 2012, 12:48:37 PM »

It's called "gurning", people hold competitions for it. It's an English thing  Grin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurn

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« Reply #248 on: June 27, 2012, 01:29:19 PM »

Wow, and I thought Americans had weird competitions...
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« Reply #249 on: June 27, 2012, 01:31:53 PM »

You have got to be kidding me.  This isn't just some Monty Python thing?

I'll bet you those Innsmouth folks could win very often though.
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Bob Lovecraft
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« Reply #250 on: June 27, 2012, 03:21:18 PM »

Leave it to those wacky Brits to come up with something like that. Wink

Bob
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« Reply #251 on: June 28, 2012, 02:42:02 PM »

On African colonisations of the Americas: certainly there is the lore of the Moorish colonisations of New Jersey, but beyond this there is some anomolous (spelling?) campfire evidence in South America, and lots and lots of "Negroid" head statues from the Columbia River basin area to the furthest reaches of Central America, and Native American lore. Then there are the various "Black Indians" from the Mardi Gras Indians to the Creeks in Florida, and no real evidence the blacks in these groups were runaway slaves.

I must confess I `m biased here with all the Däniken- ethnology that `s going on on that. So many  quacks are trodding that field it `s hard to be serious. Reading this stuff one sometimes gets the impression of  Atlantic crossings as leisurly weekend trips for the family.
„Oh crap, we forgot Kevin!“
Don `t worry dear. We `ll pick him up next time. Meanwhile our nice Phoenicean neighbours will look after him.“
Regarding any kind of native American art, I don `t understand it, so I don `t dare judge what the artist himself wanted to express when crafting a thing that to a modern European looks like an African face. Same goes for any kind of folklore. Speaking of Vikings, you could also find hints for Moores in the old north if you just want to. Names like „Flatnose“ or „The Black Halfdane“ are quite suggestive to the decided. You could also do some amateurish etymology on Berserkers and Serkland and abrakadabra – there they are: Sarrazenes in King Haralds entourage!
Just as an impromtu parallalel.
What makes the thing so uncredible for me is the simple fact, that there is no known African civilization with the necessary naval abilities and the recources to establish and maintain a big enough colony to make an impact . I am ready to accept the concept of Abu Bakr like expeditions, maybe even successful ones. People are curious, everywhere and it `s only logical that enventually some guys would gather on whatever vessels they have at hand to try to find out what lies behind the horizon. But think of the expenses the British had to make until their American colonies got over the point of selfsustainability.  

On tools: certainly convergent evolution in tool-making is a distinct possibility, as is the possibility that tools acquired over vast distances via trade could inspire the new owners to emulate the technique, which is also true of abandoned and rediscovered tool kits. Just sayin.

I think we can rule out trade here. Tracing the origin of a piece of stone is not such a big thing and if there were ancient tools made of European material discovered in America, the news would be full of them.

On the Norse in North America: the sagas provide some very specific information on the material technology of the "Skraeling" culture encountered during subsequent voyages of discovery, timber expeditions and colonisation efforts. One thing they had was exploding skin bags, according to the sagas. Inflating seal skins is a very Eskimo thing, whether Dorset or Inuit. Snorri did write long after the fact, but his sagas seem fairly reliable

That `s good enough prove that the events described were not just invented, but who ever wrote them down centuries later may not have been sure were exactly what event took place. Speaking in Saga terminology, Dorset people were home to Hellunland and Markland. By Columbus time they had in fact been replaced by the Thule culture, which also spread across Greenland. Most probably this was due to the climate change. Vinland population however remained quite stable, so Newfoundland/Newengland travelling Vikings would certainly not have encountered any Eskimo like people so far south. Not even Snorri (how do you tie him to the Vinland texts anyway?)was a historian in the modern sense and had evaluated his sources as one would do today. Even the very concept of „truth“ has to be a different one for a medieval christian scholar.
Remember how Grönlendinga Saga describes what seems like a Christian procession among American natives.

My own opinion is that the Greenlandic Norse didn't go extinct and their fate is fairly prosaic, they simply assimilated to Inuit populations in Greenland and Arctic Canada as Europe grew distant, first because of the plague, and then because of the worsening climate and lack of communication, or interest, for that matter, on the part of Europeans.



Some surely will have done that. Ivar Barðarsson `s report on the end of Vestrybygð points into that direction. That would also be a good terminus ante quem for any Vinland travels of the Norse Greenlanders.
Making up Vinland hoaxes seems to be as much fun as crafting big footprints. Maybe that could serve as an inspiration for Bob: Make your own Kensington Stone.
The Maine Penny itself however is genuine but the circumstances of the find are doubtworthy. It wasn `t dug out by professionals but presentet to the Maine State Museum in the 1970ies by a guy who claimed to have found it on a knwon archaeologigal site on Penobscot Bay which was an Indian trading point in the 12/13th century.  
Similar goes for almost all of the strey Viking artifacts in North America except for L Anse aux Medaux. Nothing definitive so far. The American originated finds in Greenland are much more clear for that matter. Altogether it adds to frequent visits (mainly wood and ore gathering) for about three centuries but no settlement.
Canadian archaeologist Patricia Sutherland however did some amazing field work in the Arctic region which might change our view on Norse-Dorset contacts in medieval times. Still due to proper publication as far as I know and highly ontroversial.
If I were a believer of any kind I would so pray for the descovery of some lasting Norse settlement in the Americas.
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Graf von Altenberg Ehrenstein
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« Reply #252 on: June 28, 2012, 02:43:37 PM »

By the way, just for the half-illiterate German: Why do we have two threads on that one? Both of them Esqiumaux-inflicted...
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« Reply #253 on: June 28, 2012, 02:44:55 PM »

Wow, just noticed that.

Consider them merged!
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« Reply #254 on: June 29, 2012, 08:57:49 AM »

To address Old Book - It seems that a lot of stories of pre-Columbian migration (grey-eyed Welsh, etc.) have been pretty well dismissed these days due to genetic mapping of modern populations.  We still don't know a lot about who came to North America 10,000 years ago, but we know a lot about those who were here when Columbus arrived and they seem to be of pretty solid Asiatic descent.  What this underscores, of course, is the notion that migration happened in waves and, while land bridges were open, was pretty consistent. 

The problem with history as we currently understand it, is that our perception of human culture is shaped by Victorian historians who assumed that everyone in the past basically lived like Medieval Europeans - staying put or at least not roaming far.  In fact, now, we know that's not true - not even in the Medieval time period.  Kennewick Man and some other finds indicate that humans wandered from Western Europe, across Asia, and into North America in the space of a SINGLE life time.  Hunter-gatherers followed food and they were clearly looking for places on the planet where population pressures hadn't dwindled the good eats. 

My personal opinion is, however, that migration until very recent times was limited by land travel.  We know from how the Phoenicians, Vikings, and others sailed that a unidirectional deep ocean crossing was pretty tough.  If someone DID make it here by that method, they're likely not leaving many artifacts behind.  The best candidate is the Chinese.  So for ancient Europeans to have made it here, their options are pretty limited - especially so considering they couldn't travel atop glaciers without a food source and great risk.  If they came, they came in large numbers, to leave behind so many artifacts.   

To me the likeliest scenario for a very early East Coast incursion is that a large population of Europeans, due to climate pressures, began migrating East following heards of animals.  Within a period of, say, ten years (not long enough for their technology to drift) they migrated until they hit an unpassable ocean - which is the Atlantic on the Eastern Coast of North America.  When they attempted to return, immediately, they found that other groups had migrated in behind them and now they're limited by warefare, etc as a means of getting back to their point of origin, so there is a general American diaspora.  This would explain why Clovis culture could have migrated from the East Coast of the USA to the West, without having to add in the problems of an Atlantic or Arctic crossing. 
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